Dropped ball allowed to run nearer the Hole !

[oltimer]

When taking a Drop, most rules state the ball is in play providing it does not run more than 2 club lengths or nearer the hole from its point of impact, yet recently I have seen some instances of players playing the ball from 2 or 3 feet in front of where they dropped it, is this allowed ?

 

[rulie]

When taking a Drop, most rules state the ball is in play providing it does not run more than 2 club lengths or nearer the hole from its point of impact, yet recently I have seen some instances of players playing the ball from 2 or 3 feet in front of where they dropped it, is this allowed ?

"Point of impact" is irrelevant, other than it must be within the area prescribed by the Rule that is allowing the drop.

The dropped ball must not roll nearer the hole than the reference point, which could be:
- the spot where the ball originally lay, as in unplayable or embedded ball
- the spot on the margin of a water hazard where the ball last crossed
- the nearest point of relief from GUR or casual water or immovable obstruction
- others that I can't think of just now.

As an example, consider a water hazard (yellow stakes or lines) and the player chooses the option of going back on a line which keeps the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard (his reference point) and flag in a straight line. He chooses to go back 25 yards on that line and drops his ball. The ball rolls forward (towards the hole) less than two club lengths. The ball is still not nearer the hole than the reference point and has been dropped correctly. His ball is correctly in play at that spot and can be played without further penalty.

 

[atticusfinch]

Rulie is correct. It might be helpful to think of it this way. The rules allow you to put the ball in another lie when it would be unfair or impossible to play it from "where it lies." So it stands to reason that you should not be allowed to reposition it in a lie that gives an advantage ...IE closer to the hole. In some cases the point where the ball lies is not its actual location but is a location legislated by the rules....the "point of reference." So, the no closer rule is based on the "point of reference"....ie the legislated location of the ball.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I quite agree with the answers given.

However, I remember seeing a USGA tournament ( I think it was the Greenbrier) where a green was surrounded by a massive lake on 3 sides. It was marked with red stakes but the shape of the green and the pin position was such that a ball going into the lake had to be dropped greenside and inevitably it was nearer the pin.

I recall the pundits commenting on this but basically said it was impossible for the drop to be no nearer the hole when the flag was in the middle. It also meant they were dropping onto the green as there was virtually no fringe (can't recall whether they dropped or placed).

Always struck me as strange they didn't have a drop zone on the other side of the green.

 

[oltimer]

very helpful, it seems to me that many players trying to be honest and redropping a ball because it ran inches nearer the hole are in fact picking up a ball in play !. I can see that when going backwards to take a drop the 2 clubs in any direction is ok, but when dropping at a point equal distance to the flag it may not run nearer than it lay. someone said there is a list of situations where it is allowed (or not allowed) - anyone know what rule this is under ?. many thanks to all who replied with such informative answers.

 

[rulie]

I quite agree with the answers given.

However, I remember seeing a USGA tournament ( I think it was the Greenbrier) where a green was surrounded by a massive lake on 3 sides. It was marked with red stakes but the shape of the green and the pin position was such that a ball going into the lake had to be dropped greenside and inevitably it was nearer the pin.

I recall the pundits commenting on this but basically said it was impossible for the drop to be no nearer the hole when the flag was in the middle. It also meant they were dropping onto the green as there was virtually no fringe (can't recall whether they dropped or placed).

Always struck me as strange they didn't have a drop zone on the other side of the green.

I'm not familiar with the situation you recalled, but do want to clarify the bolded statement above. Since it is red stakes (lateral water hazard) the ball could (one of the options available) be dropped within two club lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, but, under that option, it must not be dropped nearer the hole than the point where the ball last crossed the margin of hazard If there is not a spot within two club lengths of the point that is not nearer the hole, that option is not available and the player must proceed under a different option of that Rule (26-1).

need to make an acronym for "point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard" -pwtblctmotwh or pblcmwh? :smirk:

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I'm not familiar with the situation you recalled, but do want to clarify the bolded statement above. Since it is red stakes (lateral water hazard) the ball could (one of the options available) be dropped within two club lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, but, under that option, it must not be dropped nearer the hole than the point where the ball last crossed the margin of hazard If there is not a spot within two club lengths of the point that is not nearer the hole, that option is not available and the player must proceed under a different option of that Rule (26-1).

need to make an acronym for "point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard" -pwtblctmotwh or pblcmwh? :smirk:

That was the confusing part for me. The balls inevitably had crossed a portion of the green before entering the water so the point of entry to the hazard was pretty clear. They were in effect using the 2 club length from point of entry rule but this left them nearer the hole. There was no drop zone on the other side ofthe green so the only other option was 3 off the tee. Going to the other side of the lake wasn't an option as it was massive. There was a point no nearer the hole but it was across the green so not really an option.

 

[rulefan]

That was the confusing part for me. The balls inevitably had crossed a portion of the green before entering the water so the point of entry to the hazard was pretty clear. They were in effect using the 2 club length from point of entry rule but this left them nearer the hole. There was no drop zone on the other side ofthe green so the only other option was 3 off the tee. Going to the other side of the lake wasn't an option as it was massive. There was a point no nearer the hole but it was across the green so not really an option.

Did the water virtually surround the green? Did the ball last cross the margin of the hazard in front of the green or after it had passed over the green?

Or was the water only in front of the green?

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Did the water virtually surround the green? Did the ball last cross the margin of the hazard in front of the green or after it had passed over the green?

Or was the water only in front of the green?

The water surrounded the green on 3 sides (imagin water from 7 oclock round to 4) but not over the entrance to the green. From memory a lot of balls pitched on the green and then rolled into the hazard. It was pretty windy and there wasn't really a bail-out shot.

 

[rulie]

That was the confusing part for me. The balls inevitably had crossed a portion of the green before entering the water so the point of entry to the hazard was pretty clear. They were in effect using the 2 club length from point of entry rule but this left them nearer the hole. There was no drop zone on the other side ofthe green so the only other option was 3 off the tee. Going to the other side of the lake wasn't an option as it was massive. There was a point no nearer the hole but it was across the green so not really an option.

No qualified Rules Official would permit them to drop nearer the hole - that is a principle that must not be violated, and I doubt very much that it was (regardless of how it looked on television). From your description of the hole, it may have been a good place for a dropping zone - maybe there was one on a forward tee that the player(s) chose not to use?
BTW, dropping under Rule 26-1 (water hazard) is one of the times that a ball can be dropped on a putting green, including the one being played.

 

[rulefan]

The water surrounded the green on 3 sides (imagin water from 7 oclock round to 4) but not over the entrance to the green. From memory a lot of balls pitched on the green and then rolled into the hazard. It was pretty windy and there wasn't really a bail-out shot.

Thanks.

It may well have depended on where exactly where the hole was and the exact profile of the bank where the balls were rolling to.

 

[atticusfinch]

but this left them nearer the hole.

Sometimes the relief allowed by the urles is impossible to use.In that case other options must be used.

 

[duncan mackie]

very helpful, it seems to me that many players trying to be honest and redropping a ball because it ran inches nearer the hole are in fact picking up a ball in play !. I can see that when going backwards to take a drop the 2 clubs in any direction is ok, but when dropping at a point equal distance to the flag it may not run nearer than it lay. someone said there is a list of situations where it is allowed (or not allowed) - anyone know what rule this is under ?. many thanks to all who replied with such informative answers.

Just one small point here - part of the issue is that many take their rules from their perception of TV golf. The pro golfer, at every level, practices dropping a ball as much as many other 'strokes'. They can drop on a spot. As such they will normally drop right on the forward line in the expectation that they will receive drop, and the second time, place.

The average club golfer struggles with whether elements even count against this aspect of the rules, let alone the wider aspects. The number of times I've had players drop such that the ball lands ahead of the reference point, does it again and expects to be able to place it 'correctly' isn't small.