Driver Swing Video

[tallpaul]

My new phone has a slo-mo video feature. As the course is closed I thought I'd capture some swings at the range, here is my driver. Swing is very much a work in progress, having basically started from scratch (again) in around October last year.

I'm sure there are several 'faults' still present but it feels good compared to where it's been.

[video=youtube_share;5CczMAU0idY]http://youtu.be/5CczMAU0idY[/video]

 

[JustOne]

Looks ok(ish): a tad flat perhaps, a bit of an overswing and perhaps a fraction out-to-in thru impact but looks like it should result in a fade pretty much all of the time.

 

[Foxholer]

Seems like Downswing goes Shoulders, hips, legs. It should be the other way around.

Arms get thrown out 'past the line', though not hugely, so that touch of out-to-in results.

Try Bob's Headcover drill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I

 

[Maninblack4612]

Your swing's not flat, it's classic one plane, like Matt Kuchar. This means shoulders & arms rotate on the same plane. Buy "The Plane Truth" by Jim Hardy. He explains how one plane & two plane swings have completely different fundamentals & that mixing them can ruin your swing. Jim's colleague, Chris O'Connell, coaches Kuchar, who is one of the best strikers on tour. Have a look here http://www.planetruthgolf.com There will possibly be a Plane Truth instructor near you. Jim is acknowledged to be one of the top 10 coaches in the world.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Seems like Downswing goes Shoulders, hips, legs. It should be the other way around.

Arms get thrown out 'past the line', though not hugely, so that touch of out-to-in results.

Try Bob's Headcover drill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I

Or not. JH says, for a one plane swing "....turn the torso as hard as possible" torso meaning "both the upper torso, particularly the left shoulder ​, the middle torso & the hips" I.e. everything together. What he advises for a two plane, e.g. Poulter, swing is totally different, leaving the shoulders passive & leading with the arms. Very interesting & a completely different approach.

 

[the_coach]

My new phone has a slo-mo video feature. As the course is closed I thought I'd capture some swings at the range, here is my driver. Swing is very much a work in progress, having basically started from scratch (again) in around October last year.

I'm sure there are several 'faults' still present but it feels good compared to where it's been.

Good overall rhythm to swing.
Your problems will stem from a little from the address position, which to overall is good, but there's an extra knee flex movement in the legs before the swing starts. Hard too tell but you look quite tall even given your forum handle. An over bend of the knees at address is something I see quite often with really tall folks as it often feels more comfortable for them but it's not really a good thing. Being tall is a great advantage as it gives you a big arc therefore distance advantage if used properly so make use of your height don't make yourself smaller, extra knee flex will hamper your movement in your swing motion too (you may need to go and get your clubs checked out for length, talking about your irons here, if you haven't already and just got irons "off the shelf")

The position your knees are already in, before you make that extra flex {which gives your legs too much bend, sag at the knees} are what would be better to work with. Any slight change is uncomfortable until you get used to the change, but comfortable is quite often not right.

The major thing that currently makes your swing the shape it is, and is worth looking at to change, is right at the start of your takeaway of the club.
If you look at your video you'll notice that your initial hand path movement, as they move back in the takeaway they also move out away from your body, they are moving out towards the alignment rod you have on the ground whilst also your have some wrist hinge motion pretty much from the very start. At address don't let your hands be too low either, also something that extra tall folks tend to do along with the extra knee flex. Low hands will tend to give you that over active hands & wrists early in the takeaway something that you would be better off without.
A better approach would be at address you should have an angle to the back of your left hand and your arm (here at address you don't want that flat back of hand and arm, at impact yes but not address}.
You may already have this back of hand/arm angle can't see if you do.
But the point being in your first motion away you keep this angle, no wrist movement, so the arms club 'Y' shape stays intact and your shoulders govern the movement away, your right shoulders 'turns' behind your back and to return to the original point as this happens it keeps you hand path movement going initially straight back and as your right shoulder turns a little inside your alignment rod and not out towards it, your hands/wrists start to set/hinge at, or just after hip height.

All this, if you can work on it (although it might sound complicated it's not if you make the move you'll see what I mean) and it will keep your hands from moving away out towards your ball target line at the start of your takeaway it's this early movement thats the cause of the top of backswing position you now have and your out to in swing path.

In this vid they should go back in line with the alignment rod at first and not out towards it.

If they move away as they are doing here you'll start to get a disconnect between your arms and club and your body turn, and it also over flattens and puts the club too far behind you at the top of the backswing, which means you can get it 'stuck' behind you on the way back down to impact, or as you do here your first move is out over the top towards the target line instead of down and inside to hip height delivery position and then out to the back of the ball.
This is the reason for you to have the out to in swing path you do, and you might pull (particularly shorts irons) or over fade or slice shots in general with this action.

If you make the adjustments to your takeaway hand path you'll find it easier to set the club at or just after hip height going back and this will help you at the top where the club shaft will be more over top of your right shoulder rather than too far behind you. Easy check point make a few backswings to the top and check then check that position (not by trying to look wher the club is as looking will affect the position) but as a drill just move to the top and still looking at where a ball should be simply slacken your grip the club shaft should hit the tip of your right shoulder and not miss it and be down behind your back.

Shaft over your right shoulder at the top of backswing will help you keep the arms and club unit in front of your chest as you turn down, feet, legs, hip lead the downswing, swing through impact with a goal to swing over your left shoulder to a balanced finish.
This will all help your swing path too so you'll be able to swing down on what will be an 'in' to 'in' swing path and assuming a good and proper grip you'll get better contact a bit of a draw and more distance.
Keep the rhythm as through even though this is in slowmo it still looks as if it's pretty good.
Hope this helps.
Cheers

 

[Foxholer]

Or not. JH says, for a one plane swing "....turn the torso as hard as possible" torso meaning "both the upper torso, particularly the left shoulder ​, the middle torso & the hips" I.e. everything together. What he advises for a two plane, e.g. Poulter, swing is totally different, leaving the shoulders passive & leading with the arms. Very interesting & a completely different approach.

I am aware of Hardy's Book/teaching thanks.

There seem to be a few JH coaches who then write off 2PS and only teach 1PS!

I think we have a different interpretation on just when the torso dominates (not the right word, but close) in 1PS. I don't believe it's from the start.

Kuchar is a bit of a one-off anyway, almost an exception that proves the rule. Many 1PS-ers still have the club above the shoulder (12* is the allowance from memory). Kuchar (possibly a good model for for the OP?) does have it significantly below, but is a Professional, can dedicate the time to getting it right.

I'll bow to the_coach's greater expertise - once I understand it - as to how the OP could change for improvement. I was only commenting on what was happening - and thoughts on why.

 

[Maninblack4612]

There seem to be a few JH coaches who then write off 2PS and only teach 1PS!
.

Most believe the OPS is more reliable. The point I wanted to make was that you are, like me, so naturally one plane that yoU need to incorporate OPS moves in your swing. For example, starting the downswing with a hip slide is a bad idea. According to JH, you can't come "over the top" with the OPS, although I seem to manage it! I would agree with the point that the knees should flex, rather than bend.

I also wonder if your swing path and position at the top is due to your physical makeup. I am 6 feet tall but have short legs & quite long arms & therefore can't bend over the ball much. I look like you at the top. Apparently Kuchar has very long arms, I can't discover his inside leg measurement but this is one reason why he looks so flat. Look at this discussion I started on the Plane Truth Forum http://www.planetruthgolf.com/Forum/yaf_postst29071_Why-s-Matt-so-flat.aspx It's something that interests me a lot.

 

[the_coach]

Most believe the OPS is more reliable. The point I wanted to make was that you are, like me, so naturally one plane that yoU need to incorporate OPS moves in your swing. For example, starting the downswing with a hip slide is a bad idea. According to JH, you can't come "over the top" with the OPS, although I seem to manage it! I would agree with the point that the knees should flex, rather than bend.

I also wonder if your swing path and position at the top is due to your physical makeup. I am 6 feet tall but have short legs & quite long arms & therefore can't bend over the ball much. I look like you at the top. Apparently Kuchar has very long arms, I can't discover his inside leg measurement but this is one reason why he looks so flat. Look at this discussion I started on the Plane Truth Forum http://www.planetruthgolf.com/Forum/yaf_postst29071_Why-s-Matt-so-flat.aspx It's something that interests me a lot.

In actuality there are very few golfers including Tour players that can really swing the Club on a true "OPS". If you look at their swings on the real super slowmo.

That aside, certainly for most amateurs and particular mid to high handicap ams their leg, hip and body movement just isn't good enough to be able to support this with any great consistency or anywhere near properly at all, and as most don't start their transition and downswing with the lower leg and hip action correctly, it's something they won't really be able to achieve.

Most ams who take the club back and in doing so if their incorrect backswing movement puts them in a very low plane with the top of their swing being well below their shoulder plane they will then do the opposite coming back and swing out (over the top of the plane they had coming up) this will put the club-head outside the ball target line and they will swing from there to the left.
A classic out to in swing path and as most will then reach impact with an open face they'll get at best a fade if the degree of out to in path isn't too great in relation to their ball target line. But usually with the 'longer' clubs it will result in quite an over-fade or slice. Sometimes they'll get the face square to their out to in swing path (but slightly closed to their ball/target line) and this will produce a pull, this will tend to be with their shorter irons.

'tallpaul' please excuse me for using your swing as a model here. (and it's not all bad news there are good points in your both your spine angle, your posture is pretty good (aside from the extra knee bend) your arms hanging from your shoulders is good the hands just need to be a tad higher at address and your rhythm & tempo seems in a pretty good place.

The things that put 'tallpaul' in a too flat position at the top which then results in a out to in swing path through impact can be traced back to the address position to two points, the over bend/flex in the knees and consequently the slightly too low hand position.

Also the other being the first ten or so inches of the takeaway where the hand path moves out as it travels away from target {ie. it can be seen here in the vid by the distance the butt end is at address from the torso, belly button and this distance increases as the hands move out further away from the body, this shouldn't happen in the takeaway as it detrimentally affects the radius of the swing arc & swing path.}
As there is an alignment rod down in the vid it's even easier to see this movement outwards by looking at where the club-head is traveling.
Instead the hand path should be moving straight back away from target with the shoulder turn then taking the hand path therefore the club gently inside and up.
An outwards towards the target line hand path movement of the swing slightly disconnects the arms & club from the body also.

In this few ten inches of movement the low hand position also contributes to a too soon active hand/wrist set that also has a little bit of roll and these things combine once the hands and club are above hip height to the over flat plane and subsequent out to in downswing path to and through impact.

The solutions to all of this are in my previous post (5).
Good news is it's not as hard as it may seem to correct this if you just work through it. But writing proper detail is a lot harder than the things I would normally do to correct this in a one to one lesson in person. Correct written explanation has to be much more detailed, hence the length of golf instruction books!

 

[tallpaul]

Thanks for the replies.

With respect to my takeaway and plane, those are interesting comments and resonate with what my coach has been attempting to instill in me.

Certainly, I am aware my initial takeaway is a work in progress and, I've been told, this is driving the position I reach at the top of my swing.

The knee bend is an interesting issue. It's something I've been actively introducing to stop my right leg straightening during the backswing and also maintain balance through the swing. Could you provide any references that demonstrate a better position/feeling?

 

[the_coach]

Thanks for the replies.

With respect to my takeaway and plane, those are interesting comments and resonate with what my coach has been attempting to instill in me.

Certainly, I am aware my initial takeaway is a work in progress and, I've been told, this is driving the position I reach at the top of my swing.

The knee bend is an interesting issue. It's something I've been actively introducing to stop my right leg straightening during the backswing and also maintain balance through the swing. Could you provide any references that demonstrate a better position/feeling?

You have to go with your PGA coach if you're getting one to one lessons.

My take on the whole which is based round my belief to teach and fit the best swing for the person in front of me based on sound golf fundamentals rather than coaching just 'one particular model', would be as I described before in the post with my original observations and recommended things to work on.

The swing plane well below your shoulder plane, as yours is on this vid swing at least, would be an issue for me even if you're going after a one plane swing in it's entirety.

The lowest I would recommend at the top would be parallel to your shoulder plane as that gives you at least a fighting chance of coming down on the same plane through impact. (As an aside Matt Kuchar really is a one off. Very difficult to play golf well consistently for someone who may not be able to hit as many balls as he does in practice. Interesting point watch his first move away {not suggesting that you should try to copy it, not a good idea} But the very first thing he does is slightly raise up to gain a little vertical height before he moves the Club away.)
My observation about the knee flex and lower hands at address, is based on my experience of both seeing and coaching tall players around 185/186 cms and over, it seems it's a common feeling to try and make themselves slightly less tall with extra bend in the knees. But you don't want or need that 'extra sag' it will make the motion your legs and hips have to attain during the downswing a lot harder to do. You want to stay with knees just 'softened off' from straight so you can use the advantage a tall player has in being able naturally to produce a bigger swing arc as this gives you 'easy' club-head speed therefore distance.

I understand your concern on a straight right leg, but the flex you have before you make the extra sink down in the knees would be a perfect pace to start from. As long as you stay in posture as you turn into your right hip going back and stay with that same spine angle to the top, that original knee flex position before the extra bend as I said would be perfect.

Incidentally there are many top Tour players who do 'straighten' their right leg just a little going back {but not lock it ramrod straight to alter their vertical height or posture) you obviously can play good golf from there too, but you won't find any Tour players playing good golf from an over-bend in their legs for sure.

If you want to take a look although they won't all be one plane swingers, just 'utube' some of the taller Tour players like Stricker, different action but that makes no difference really, have a look at their address postures and knee flex.
There's an English golfer on our USPGA tour now David Lynn, have a look at him too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXyy2Cnwuuk
Just have a trawl through looking at the taller tour players postures particularly their legs at address and you'll see what I mean, against your own 'extra knee flex' that you sit into before you start back.

The sole reason you swing out to in on the way back through impact, is down totally down to the 'over flat' top of swing position.
If someone is that flat at the top you really have to start your swing from the ground up quite markedly to stand any chance at all not swinging back 'out and over'.
Because starting back down as you do more with the upper body and arms you can only swing out and over the plane (out to in all day this way really) you came up on you won't be able really with any consistency to swing down that same plane and if you find yourself doing that you may well find then the problem has gone to be swinging back way way too much from the inside as it's such a narrow corridor both swinging up and down that you're trying to operate within, not much leeway there at all for you.

But wish you well, with whatever you do.

 

[the_coach]

I'll bow to the_coach's greater expertise - once I understand it - as to how the OP could change for improvement.

This may help explain, in a visual way, my golf concepts somewhat, and the basis of what my explanations of how golfers can improve their own concept of what they should be trying to work towards to improve their golf swings are rooted in, this vid shows these in a simple form.

Of course with different problems that different golfers have, you have to know where to start, and how, and which part of the problem should be tackled first, as one error early on in the swing leads to many more, in order to teach and gain improvement in a golfers technique to promote better results.

On this vid are the simplest fundamentals I base my coaching around it explains these core parts that are essential in an efficient golf swing.
My own understanding of these fundamentals and more of how a swing works in greater detail came through my own research of the game and having proved that it indeed works to myself first in my own game, by using these basic concepts to have reached an elite standard in the world of amateur golf myself.
And also on a one to one teaching scenario being able to improve other golfers, in my case mainly these golfers are already elite high performing amateur golfers, but I've also worked with mid to high handicap golfers of all standards with success.

Hope this short vid folks may not have come across may help some folks looking to try to improve their own games and swings, if you have seen it but dismissed it as it seemed not to say anything much that you thought you didn't already know, take a proper second look and listen.

It's a simple explanation and might at first glance not seem worth bothering with, but if you truly are able to get just what's going onhere, it will transform your game for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prfSON661xs

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks for that. Seems a pretty reasonable approach

Certainly recognise the 'double-pendulum' description from (I believe the introducers) Cochrane & Stobbs!

The Vid, maybe not unreasonably for a shortie overview, didn't mention the use/importance of 'wrist-torque' from un-cocking.

 

[the_coach]

Thanks for that. Seems a pretty reasonable approach

Certainly recognise the 'double-pendulum' description from (I believe the introducers) Cochrane & Stobbs!

The Vid, maybe not unreasonably for a shortie overview, didn't mention the use/importance of 'wrist-torque' from un-cocking.

Yes, as I said in the post with the link, a very simple overview of the basics, the detail can be found given in my other posts

People seem to have been stressing here before, everything should be simple (whilst there are times it can be, during a lesson in person. For the written word alone to be of any real use it has to be precise and detailed but nevertheless based on a sound understanding of golf's fundamentals, as would a video if trying to give anything else but basic concepts. Hence the link given to the very simple but none the less important (particularly if you study and pay real attention to the slowmo swings) overview.
Incidentally the wrists are mentioned twice, though not labored as a point in this brief overview, mainly because on the downswing through impact a golfer shouldn't be 'trying' to do anything wiht them as such. As to consciously try to uncock or roll or do anything else with the wrists and the hands other than 'let' them release through impact will interfere with both the speed of the club-head and accuracy of the strike.

In many ways there aren't any real 'firsts' as such, that's only really part of explaining something in a slightly different way with maybe a different 'label' for such an explanations.
Bobby Jones long before Alastair Cochrane & John Stobbs, spoke about it.
As did Willie Park in the very first golf instruction book written by a professional golfer "The Game of Golf" published in 1897.
So do did a non professional golfer from Edinburgh, Scotland, a Thomas Kincaid who wrote swing instructions conveying similar notions in his diaries from January 26th, 1687.
And the daddy of them all, the first golf instruction book ever written, published anonymously "The Golfers Manual" by A Keen Hand in 1857, the keen hand actually being an Englishman called Henry Brougham Farnie.
They all without anything other than their own vision for a guide came up with a description of the golf swing that's remarkably similar to swing arc's, double pendulums', levers, lag, torque, pivots, arm swing and weight transference and ground force, balance, rhythm, tempo, physics, gravity, plus many others, all of which is quite remarkable.