Draining the swamp.

[SocketRocket]

We have heard the allegations against Priti Patel and the accusation of constructive dismissal from a senior Civil Servant. Is it about time some senior people in the civil service are brought more into line with Government policy, it does seem there have been a number of leaks recently that were used to undermine policy and it has been suspected that senior civil servants have worked more to promote their own personal political preferences. We also had the recent spat with the Treasury who it seems have worked as a subset of government for a very long time. The previous PM certainly seemed to be dominated by these people.

Is it time to drain the swamp?

 

[chrisd]

Yes absolutely

 

[bladeplayer]

Or maybe there is a bullying problem .. didnt finance quy quit because he was been told who to have as his advisors ..

Ive no proof just saying there might b a problem

 

[Wilson]

We have heard the allegations against Priti Patel and the accusation of constructive dismissal from a senior Civil Servant. Is it about time some senior people in the civil service are brought more into line with Government policy, it does seem there have been a number of leaks recently that were used to undermine policy and it has been suspected that senior civil servants have worked more to promote their own personal political preferences. We also had the recent spat with the Treasury who it seems have worked as a subset of government for a very long time. The previous PM certainly seemed to be dominated by these people.

Is it time to drain the swamp?

I’d suggest if they are draining the swamp, the PM & Home Secretary would be top of the list.

 

[Norrin Radd]

I’d suggest if they are draining the swamp, the PM & Home Secretary would be top of the list.

And just who would you put in their place?

 

[robinthehood]

Yes the home Secretary will soon be gone thank goodness.

 

[Grizzly]

The thing is, Civil Servants survive Governments. Always. Usually, they survive several. Governments, as a by product of the political beast, have a significant inbuilt short termism in their viewpoint that would be quite dangerous to our national well being were there not Civil Servants in place to provide context and strategy to their thinking (even if it is not always clear to the Politicians that that is what is happening). They provide continuity, stability and quite often prevent Government from spiralling off into a series of ill thought out and probably illegal actions "because it seemed like the right thing to do".

None of that means that every senior Civil Servant is perfect - many are flawed, overly conservative in their thinking and wedded to old ideas as to how things should operate. But there is an inherent honesty of purpose in having people who remain at the helm through changes of policy and direction and are not deeply invested in the sometimes arbitrary "will of the people" every few years.

 

[bladeplayer]

All my inlaws are well up.in.our civil service my mrs use to work in taoiseachs office before transferring closer to home .
My parents in law are retired but my bro in law pretty high up .
Politicians have great ideas but civil servants run the country . They tell the ministers what they can and cant do . They do all the grafting (work not realy graft) and they advise the politicans not the other way round

 

[bluewolf]

Some interesting terminology in the OP. I suppose the only real question is - “Would you have made the same post if someone else was Home Secretary? Maybe someone like Diane Abbott?” If the answer is No, then the question doesn’t deserve an answer.

 

[SocketRocket]

Some interesting terminology in the OP. I suppose the only real question is - “Would you have made the same post if someone else was Home Secretary? Maybe someone like Diane Abbott?” If the answer is No, then the question doesn’t deserve an answer.

Yes

 

[bluewolf]

Yes

Fantastic. Then the answer is No. the Civil service is not there to be a rubber stamp on anything the current government wants. That’s not it’s purpose.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The civil service is there to carry out the wishes of our elected representatives. They don't get to decide which policies to enforce and which to block.

 

[bladeplayer]

They are there to tell them what they can and cant sanction or enforce . . What they can and cant do legaly etc .. they have the experience and knowledge

 

[bluewolf]

The civil service is there to carry out the wishes of our elected representatives. They don't get to decide which policies to enforce and which to block.

Even if the wishes of our elected representatives are un-doable? Or illegal? Or too costly? Or immoral? Or just downright stupid?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Even if the wishes of our elected representatives are un-doable? Or illegal? Or too costly? Or immoral? Or just downright stupid?

It is a crucial part of their job to tell politicians what is impractical, un-doable or illegal. They have to point out true costings but ultimately the politicians decide whether to proceed. In terms of immoral or downright stupid again they advise but if the politicians were elected to carry out specific policies that they were elected to do then it is not for civil servants to block them. We elect the politicians, we then expect them to carry out what they promise at the election. Just because you may not like the winner you may not block what people elected them to do.

What gives them the right to judge what is right, or stupid? What if their views are immoral or stupid? How do we remove them?

 

[bluewolf]

It is a crucial part of their job to tell politicians what is impractical, un-doable or illegal. They have to point out true costings but ultimately the politicians decide whether to proceed. In terms of immoral or downright stupid again they advise but if the politicians were elected to carry out specific policies that they were elected to do then it is not for civil servants to block them. We elect the politicians, we then expect them to carry out what they promise at the election. Just because you may not like the winner you may not block what people elected them to do.

What gives them the right to judge what is right, or stupid? What if their views are immoral or stupid? How do we remove them?

Hmmmmm, who do we afford more trust? An elected representative, with no skill set required. No formal training, no required qualifications etc etc. Or, a senior Civil Servant, with many years of experience, significant education levels, highly specialised skillset etc etc. Toughie. ?

I think we need to be very careful regarding the current direction the government is taking. Attempting to bend the Judiciary and the Civil Service to suit the will of the current Government is very dangerous. I would hope that what we would all want is a neutral Civil Service, who apply skills and experience. Not a group of obsequious toadies who do what they’re told.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It's a balance but ultimately we are a democracy and there has to be boundaries to what a civil service does otherwise we are no better than China or equivalent, yes I know that is an exaggeration but you get my point.

I certainly agree with your last paragraph ?

 

[bluewolf]

It's a balance but ultimately we are a democracy and there has to be boundaries to what a civil service does otherwise we are no better than China or equivalent, yes I know that is an exaggeration but you get my point.

I certainly agree with your last paragraph ?

I would agree that if it was proven that senior civil servants were behaving politically, then they should be removed. But the Idea that the Civil Service is there purely to carry out the will of the government is dangerous and wrong.
the upcoming court case is going to be interesting, and I have a suspicion that the Home Secretary is not going to come out of it unscathed.

 

[bladeplayer]

I would agree that if it was proven that senior civil servants were behaving politically, then they should be removed. But the Idea that the Civil Service is there purely to carry out the will of the government is dangerous and wrong.
the upcoming court case is going to be interesting, and I have a suspicion that the Home Secretary is not going to come out of it unscathed.

Depends how many row in behind the guy . if a few back him she could b in bother .. i know of 1 case here the taoiseach at the time thought he knew best . they let him have his way . Made a fool of himself . .

 

[Leftie]

I'm sure that it doesn't make a lot of difference what flavour of government we have, the CS will endeavour to steer a middle path, so to speak. If you want to know how it all really works you can do worse than watching some episodes of Yes Minister and later Yes Prime Minister from the '80's. Some excellent episodes as well relating to the Common Market which were very relevant until recently. Maggie's favourite sitcom I believe.

Apparently, David Cameron, said "I once had to write an essay (at Uni) on 'How true to life is Yes, Minister'", he recalled. "I think I wrote… that it wasn't true to life. I can tell you, as prime minister, it is true to life."