Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

[Swinglowandslow]

The NHS, through NICE, routinely reviews new medicines using Quality Adjusted Life Years. In brief, this combines the effect on quality of life with the years of live saved by treatment. So, as an aside, the NHS is institutionally ageist, because treatments offered to older people save fewer years than those offered to younger people, and hence are less good value in the older people. Anyway, applying the same equation to Covid, an argument could emerge that the value of vaccines ra optimised when used in people at the older ages of working life, and who still have dependents, because the effect of illness or death costs a lot more years of life, affects family members and the economy. There was a report in the media about an old dear with advanced dementia getting her vaccine. Now, I may be demented one day, possibly have started already, but the quality of life benefits in vaccinating people with dementia are next to zilch. Sounds harsh, but that is how rationing in the NHS already works.

I haven't run the numbers, but offer this just to challenge the rather one dimensional idea that people at the highest risk of death is the best way to prioritise. As a separate aside, if that formula was really true, men would get vacc'd before women 5 years younger, and BAME would get vacc'd a similar period before white prople. And BAME men would get vacc'd 10 years younger than white women. So discrimination by age is OK, but not by gender or ethnicity.

Hmmm, I suppose that's a very good reason why the Queen and Prince Phillip don't rely on the NHS??

 

[triple_bogey]

I have friends in China ?? currently posting on Facebook (when they can, VPN?) about how great things are there now.

Why are they lying for? To get social points I bet?

 

[Ethan]

Should they not have the same opportunity of living out every hour of their lives, are their hours less worthy due to their age.

When NICE reviews a new drug, say a cancer medicine, they look at the eligible population, and calculate how many years of life will be saved based on actuarial life tables (basically life expectancy at given ages) and what the quality of life improvement will be. If the cancer is a type that affects elderly people, the the amount of life saved is less than for a drug of equal effectiveness that treats a cancer that younger people get. it is dressed up a bit but basically it discriminates by age as a matter of policy.

The same policy has been applied to a huge range of medicines over the past 20 years, but strangely not to Covid vaccines, although it is clearly something which is being rationed.

I am not saying that is right, there are a whole range of problems with it, but that is the way it is.

Informally, most people intuitively agree with this, believing it is better to save a young life "with a whole life ahead of them" than an older life, although they would bristle at it as a matter of policy, if they knew it was.

 

[SocketRocket]

When NICE reviews a new drug, say a cancer medicine, they look at the eligible population, and calculate how many years of life will be saved based on actuarial life tables (basically life expectancy at given ages) and what the quality of life improvement will be. If the cancer is a type that affects elderly people, the the amount of life saved is less than for a drug of equal effectiveness that treats a cancer that younger people get. it is dressed up a bit but basically it discriminates by age as a matter of policy.

The same policy has been applied to a huge range of medicines over the past 20 years, but strangely not to Covid vaccines, although it is clearly something which is being rationed.

I am not saying that is right, there are a whole range of problems with it, but that is the way it is.

Informally, most people intuitively agree with this, believing it is better to save a young life "with a whole life ahead of them" than an older life, although they would bristle at it as a matter of policy, if they knew it was.

I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another. I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.

 

[Leftitshort]

Isn’t that what is currently happening? Incarceration of all of society for the benefit of a few? I’m an advocate of vaccination as it currently is. Not necessarily from a medical standpoint but from a confidence point of view. I see & hear people taking pretty extreme measures to keep virus free. Many seem as though they’ll never venture out again with out the vaccine. This condemns the rest of us to live the same way

 

[Ethan]

I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another. I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.

Incarceration of society? I think a lot of kids would think they have been incarcerated too. Anyway, the point is that starting in a very one-dimensional way with the oldest may not be the most expeditious and effective way to end this as soon as possible. Some of the people in care homes who have received vaccines will not be any less sincarerated when this is all over.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Incarceration of society? I think a lot of kids would think they have been incarcerated too. Anyway, the point is that starting in a very one-dimensional way with the oldest may not be the most expeditious and effective way to end this as soon as possible. Some of the people in care homes who have received vaccines will not be any less sincarerated when this is all over.

No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live.
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.

 

[Leftitshort]

No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live.
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.

he does & it would from reading his post. It may be a quicker of achieving the same goal.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another. I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.

What about the incarceration of 40 million for the benefit of the minority?

The majority of the UK are in the low risk group but they are all currently being put under restrictions to help the minority

 

[Ethan]

No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live.
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.

I think you have a rather simplistic view of the different and sometimes competing priorities in play. Everybody has a friend affected in one way of another by this. A much higher proportion of hospital admissions are now younger than was the case in early 2020. The NHS will collapse a lot faster if NHS staff denied vaccinations go off sick in droves or due to the pressures.

 

[DanFST]

*Irrelevant drivel*

Where did you visit/work in China? You must had done something really bad for the government to step in and mistreat you. Otherwise it would be the local governing bodies that would had dealt with you. And if that single group of people did do something so drastic for you to despise the country, then higher up officials would step in and arrest them.

The two members here I remember that have family over in China, why have they not left and come back to the UK? If it really is as bad as the media makes out, makes no sense at all in staying. AKAIK, you can still leave the country but cannot get back in.

I would Visit Shanghai mainly, loved going to Sharks basketball games. Also Beijing and Guangzhou from time to time. Of course the government didn't mistreat me, I'm wealthy and white. Americans and Europeans have a better quality of life out there, way more jobs available, especially for middle management positions. Pay is much more as westerners generally don't want to live there. However unless they are Chinese, you won't find many people at the top of their field settling there.

I don't want to divert the thread more so. But here's the list of problems that form my opinion.

- I like democracy, don't like abolishing term laws so Xi Jinping is in power for life.
- I like free speech, don't like censorship of peoples views.
- I don't like censorship of information.
- I don't like incredibly powerful state surveillance.
- I don't like fabrication of Covid death figures.
- I don't like the huge disparity of wealth.
- I don't like a justice system being government run.
- I don't like internment and "re-education" of minorities.
- I don't like the mafioso like way in which business is run, especially towards foreign business.
- I don't like that almost everyone I met with investing large sums, had links to the CCP.

If you think those things are ok, power to you! Not for me tho.

 

[Smiffy]

Update on daughter is that she hasn't really been badly affected by it. Felt a bit groggy the first couple of days, but feeling much better now.
More good news is that my wife, being a dental nurse, has been able to book her vaccination for next week....

 

[bobmac]

Good news mate, pass on my best wishes please

 

[Tashyboy]

I think you have a rather simplistic view of the different and sometimes competing priorities in play. Everybody has a friend affected in one way of another by this. A much higher proportion of hospital admissions are now younger than was the case in early 2020. The NHS will collapse a lot faster if NHS staff denied vaccinations go off sick in droves or due to the pressures.

What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round ? Can anyone out there finger on it.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round ? Can anyone out there finger on it.

Hazarding a guess( being simplistic ?), could it be that it is this age group which partied more etc over Xmas and became involved more in the relaxed rules ove r that period. The increase percentage is in those ages requiring ICU, but if the young ones were out and about more, Xmas style, it would be expected, I suggest. Much more of them being infected.

 

[Ethan]

What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round ? Can anyone out there finger on it.

Combination of things, lots of older patients already infected/dead, greater flouting of regulations by younger, more social mixing in younger age group leads to disproportionate case growth. The virus isn't more pathogenic, just more transmissible.

 

[drdel]

Combination of things, lots of older patients already infected/dead, greater flouting of regulations by younger, more social mixing in younger age group leads to disproportionate case growth. The virus isn't more pathogenic, just more transmissible.

Plus wider testing regime.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Laid out very clearly on the Gov.UK web site which can be accessed via your inter web connection and the NHS COVID track & trace app.

Jeez - I know that - but 4 out of 5 are reported as claiming they don't (and therefore can give that excuse/reason for their confusion and not adhering fully?).

As I said. If I am asked 'do I know all that I am allowed to do?' My answer without looking it up on the gov website is NO.

If I need to know what's allowed I know where to look. I have no excuse for breaches - mistaken or not.

If I am asked 'do I know what I am required to do' my answer is an unequivocal YES.

What I am required to do is actually very simple - and in the first instance we should all stick to focussing on what we are required to do - not what we are allowed to do.

I am 100% with both you and @SR on this.

Hope that's clear

 

[Ethan]

Plus wider testing regime.

Well, testing doesn't lead to admissions, it will lead to greater numbers in the cases reported. Symptoms lead to admissions.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You really need to turn off talk radio

..and listen to the BBC instead?...I do both.