Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

[D-S]

This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png

 

[Swinglowandslow]

This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png

True, but it just isn't money. Ethan highlighted a case recently where bureaucracy was unbelievable about how someone could/would be referred from one dept to another, even though it could be done just by walking down the corridor from one to the other with a referring note.
However, this is not an argument against more investment in the NHS, the truth is that both matters need dealing with.
But, calls for more money are met - opposed- by calls for more efficiency , usually from a political ideology base
And vice versa.
One day sense may prevail. And the best use of a correct level of money may be implemented. More so by input from Drs than managers.

 

[D-S]

In 2019 we were 17th in per capita healthcare spend, if we want to have a more capable system it is a given that we will have to spend more. We should be doing that and increasing efficiency at the same time.
I pay for Private health insurance for my wife and I after a lifetime of cover from employers. I would be more than happy to pay this amount and more into the NHS instead for a better service. Annoyingly insurance companies are taking a large chunk of my spend which could be better spent on actual services.
If we want a decent (or even adequate service), we are going to have to pay more so let’s bite the bullet. We all know that our health is the most important thing so let’s put it front and centre. Surely not a bad thing in a manifesto?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

True, but it just isn't money. Ethan highlighted a case recently where bureaucracy was unbelievable about how someone could/would be referred from one dept to another, even though it could be done just by walking down the corridor from one to the other with a referring note.
However, this is not an argument against more investment in the NHS, the truth is that both matters need dealing with.
But, calls for more money are met - opposed- by calls for more efficiency , usually from a political ideology base
And vice versa.
One day sense may prevail. And the best use of a correct level of money may be implemented. More so by input from Drs than managers.

A lot of the bureaucracy will be down to the NHS internal market…and made especially necessary and ever more required when elements of service provision are privatised. And as more elements are privatised the more required does become the bureaucracy…any more down that path I doubt we can discuss.

 

[D-S]

The ‘how’ we spend more money is obviously a political question but the fact that we are going to have to and how we get the money should at least be step 1 but at the moment it doesn't seem even to be on the agenda - why? Start training recruiting more staff, planning for more infrastructure and let the mechanics of delivery service follow.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Called in this morning to discuss absence rates. Struggling to complete a rota for the next few days with so many especially our junior doctors off at the moment. Trying to get a safe skill mix proving a problem and trying to find suitable agency staff becoming harder as demand increases

 

[D-S]

Practising doctors per 1000 people UK - 3, France - 3.4, Italy - 4, Germany - 4.5.

 

[road2ruin]

This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.

 

[drdel]

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.

Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.

Difficult. Our site is very old and in places has a lot of problems with infrastructure so we are spending loads on trying to keep areas going and open to deliver care. We need a new hospital to deal with the increased load on our services as Reading and the surrounding areas get bigger. Is that waste? We have spent millions on a new electronic patient records system to get rid of paper and make details available to everyone? Way over budget but waste?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Practising doctors per 1000 people UK - 3, France - 3.4, Italy - 4, Germany - 4.5.

The bizarre bit there is that the govt, sort of, control the number of university entrants for medicine each year. Both of my kids have friends who applied for medicine. None had less than A stars across the board but not all could get in. The places are limited but if we have a shortage of staff, people wanting to qualify, academically capable to at least start the course, but unable to train due to restrictions of numbers then where is the sense?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.

I agree with the sentiment, but how long would the auditors get and how much would they cost?

Been a lot of money wasted on “experts” in recent times.

 

[RichA]

Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.

Along with world class modesty and humility.

 

[Ethan]

Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.

International expertise in what, though? It is a massive generalisation to say that medics push back against external experts. I would think it depends a lot on the expert and whether their expert view is applicable to a situation they may not have dealt with before.

The NHS has seen millions spunked away on reports by Big 4 firms on restructuring and so on, that simply regurgitate generic methods that the management have already thought of but lack the courage to propose, so PWC or whoever gets paid a ton to act as a forum of opposition and allows the locals to mildly reduce the proposals and look like the good guys.

The big money pit in the NHS is the internal market which has caused an explosion in people and processes to measure and count activity, generate, monitor and sometimes game contracts, and in doing so they significantly increase the admin time of doctors (my wife reckons it has gone from 1 hour admin for every hour clinical 20 years ago, to 3:1 now) and waste clinical time with unnecessary meetings as well as increase the complexity of dealing with referrals, as well as increase the number of interfaces and the fraction that goes with it.

 

[D-S]

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.

I would agree if the NHS currently cost significantly more than other developed nations but as long as we have the they already get ‘an awful lot of money’ so they shouldn’t get any more attitude, despite the fact that the ‘awful lot of money’ is far less than comparable nations we will always lag behind. We need to realise that we can’t save our way to excellence, ultimately we will have to pay for it. At least recognise this and get in on the agenda.

 

[road2ruin]

I would agree if the NHS currently cost significantly more than other developed nations but as long as we have the they already get ‘an awful lot of money’ so they shouldn’t get any more attitude, despite the fact that the ‘awful lot of money’ is far less than comparable nations we will always lag behind. We need to realise that we can’t save our way to excellence, ultimately we will have to pay for it. At least recognise this and get in on the agenda.

It’s all relative, I’m not really fused how comparable we other to other nations whilst the NHS is able to get away with wasting as much as they do. I have friends who work in the NHS and they’re in the back offices, hiding away making a resent wage whilst no one really knows what they do. They also watch as redundancies are made and within a month or two the same people are brought back in on agency wages as they suddenly don’t have the staff to cover the positions. It’s ridiculous what a black hole the NHS budgets are and whilst I don’t begrudge paying for it there needs to be more accountability.

 

[road2ruin]

According to the Times LFT’s are going to cease to be free and will be a paid for item in the coming months. I guess that’ll lower our case numbers pretty quickly!

 

[PJ87]

According to the Times LFT’s are going to cease to be free and will be a paid for item in the coming months. I guess that’ll lower our case numbers pretty quickly!

Way to cause a shortage then consider their use by date is 2023.. and you can order a pack every 24 hours...can see people ordering one a day

 

[drdel]

International expertise in what, though? It is a massive generalisation to say that medics push back against external experts. I would think it depends a lot on the expert and whether their expert view is applicable to a situation they may not have dealt with before.

The NHS has seen millions spunked away on reports by Big 4 firms on restructuring and so on, that simply regurgitate generic methods that the management have already thought of but lack the courage to propose, so PWC or whoever gets paid a ton to act as a forum of opposition and allows the locals to mildly reduce the proposals and look like the good guys.

The big money pit in the NHS is the internal market which has caused an explosion in people and processes to measure and count activity, generate, monitor and sometimes game contracts, and in doing so they significantly increase the admin time of doctors (my wife reckons it has gone from 1 hour admin for every hour clinical 20 years ago, to 3:1 now) and waste clinical time with unnecessary meetings as well as increase the complexity of dealing with referrals, as well as increase the number of interfaces and the fraction that goes with it.

I've heard all this stuff before and know enough to recognise that I'll not change your mind on a public forum. As to your putdown challenge: the "Expertise" - was enough to be asked personally by people senior enough to judge. As a self proclaimed 'expert' in your field I'd have expected a more professional reciprocation.

You instant 'shoot the messenger' pushback from scant information rather proves the point I was making.

I'm back in my box now.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

2nd LFT negative , I am a free man
Huzzar ?