Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

PNWokingham

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/22/hidden-immunity-booster-jabs-may-not-needed/

Hidden immunity: Why booster jabs may not be needed after all
Studies suggest people may not require a third vaccination despite falling antibody levels among the elderly

By
Sarah Knapton,
SCIENCE EDITOR
22 August 2021 • 6:00pm
Anyone keeping an eye on coronavirus antibody levels in Britain may have noticed an alarming trend in recent months.

Since peaking in May, the percentage of older people who are testing positive for protective antibodies has been steadily declining. It rose to 95 per cent for the over-80s, and has now fallen to 92.4.

In fact, only the under-50s are not seeing a drop in antibody levels, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This signal of waning immunity has led to calls for booster jabs ahead of a winter wave.

But several studies have come out in the last few months that suggest we might not need to be too worried after all. Antibodies are not the only indicator of immunity.

In May, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine, who studied 77 recovering Covid patients found that while antibodies declined over time, bone marrow plasma cells, capable of producing antibodies against the virus, remained stable.

Dialed-down protection could last a lifetime
It means that people who have recovered from an infection have immunity hidden away in their bones ready to spring into action. This type of dialed-down protection could last decades, or even a lifetime, the researchers believe.

The team also found patients were carrying memory B-cells - a type of white blood cell - which patrols the blood looking for the virus.

In fact, the researchers noted that the levels of B-cells found in recovered Covid-19 patients are equal to people vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, both vaccines that provide long-term immunity to those diseases.

Similarly, researchers from The Rockefeller University, New York, recently found that recovered Covid patients still have immunity a year after infection, including antibodies that were "exceptionally resistant" to variants.

“The data suggest that immunity in convalescent individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B-cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants,” the researchers concluded.

The problem with only looking at antibodies is it gives a false picture of the level of protection. The body is efficient, and will not continue to produce high-levels of antibodies when they are no longer needed.

Blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away
This is a good thing, as it prevents the onset of auto-immunity which can lead to a slew of debilitating conditions. Instead, the blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away, while a casual surveillance is mounted by the immune system.

But bone marrow and B-cells are not all the body has stashed away for a future fight. Last year, Imperial College found that people who had recovered from Covid still had memory T-cells even after antibodies had waned. T-cells are a kind of white blood cell which stores the details of a past infection and can quickly multiply on re-exposure, providing a rapid response to an invader.

T-cells may also have the added benefit of being able to fight variants. While antibodies only detect proteins on the outside of cells, such as the spike protein which the virus uses to latch on to human cells, T-cells can hone in on proteins inside infected cells. Crucially, many of these do not change when the virus mutates.

Earlier this year, scientists at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California found that people infected by Covid generate T-cells that target at least 15 to 20 different fragments of coronavirus proteins, and would work even against worrying mutations such as the 501Y.V2 mutation found in the South Africa (beta) variant.

Infections from the original Sars virus have also produced immunity in recovered patients that have lasted decades. A study by scientists in Singapore, published last week, found that Sars patients who were vaccinated against Covid produced high levels of neutralizing antibodies against both viruses.

It suggests that memory regions of the immune system were jogged into action by the vaccine, raising hope that coronavirus infection or vaccination offers long-term protection which can be easily ramped up if the virus re-emerges.

Certainly we are not seeing any indication that vaccinated people are becoming more at risk for reinfection. Although there have been some breakthrough infections with the delta variant, the vast majority (82 per cent) of people catching Covid currently have not had two doses.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is expected to advise that booster vaccinations will not be rolled out to the wider population, although some more vulnerable people may be offered a third jab. For most of us, it is likely we will be safe enough with just two.
 

Swinglowandslow

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worth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/22/hidden-immunity-booster-jabs-may-not-needed/

Hidden immunity: Why booster jabs may not be needed after all
Studies suggest people may not require a third vaccination despite falling antibody levels among the elderly

By
Sarah Knapton,
SCIENCE EDITOR
22 August 2021 • 6:00pm
Anyone keeping an eye on coronavirus antibody levels in Britain may have noticed an alarming trend in recent months.

Since peaking in May, the percentage of older people who are testing positive for protective antibodies has been steadily declining. It rose to 95 per cent for the over-80s, and has now fallen to 92.4.

In fact, only the under-50s are not seeing a drop in antibody levels, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This signal of waning immunity has led to calls for booster jabs ahead of a winter wave.

But several studies have come out in the last few months that suggest we might not need to be too worried after all. Antibodies are not the only indicator of immunity.

In May, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine, who studied 77 recovering Covid patients found that while antibodies declined over time, bone marrow plasma cells, capable of producing antibodies against the virus, remained stable.

Dialed-down protection could last a lifetime
It means that people who have recovered from an infection have immunity hidden away in their bones ready to spring into action. This type of dialed-down protection could last decades, or even a lifetime, the researchers believe.

The team also found patients were carrying memory B-cells - a type of white blood cell - which patrols the blood looking for the virus.

In fact, the researchers noted that the levels of B-cells found in recovered Covid-19 patients are equal to people vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, both vaccines that provide long-term immunity to those diseases.

Similarly, researchers from The Rockefeller University, New York, recently found that recovered Covid patients still have immunity a year after infection, including antibodies that were "exceptionally resistant" to variants.

“The data suggest that immunity in convalescent individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B-cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants,” the researchers concluded.

The problem with only looking at antibodies is it gives a false picture of the level of protection. The body is efficient, and will not continue to produce high-levels of antibodies when they are no longer needed.

Blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away
This is a good thing, as it prevents the onset of auto-immunity which can lead to a slew of debilitating conditions. Instead, the blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away, while a casual surveillance is mounted by the immune system.

But bone marrow and B-cells are not all the body has stashed away for a future fight. Last year, Imperial College found that people who had recovered from Covid still had memory T-cells even after antibodies had waned. T-cells are a kind of white blood cell which stores the details of a past infection and can quickly multiply on re-exposure, providing a rapid response to an invader.

T-cells may also have the added benefit of being able to fight variants. While antibodies only detect proteins on the outside of cells, such as the spike protein which the virus uses to latch on to human cells, T-cells can hone in on proteins inside infected cells. Crucially, many of these do not change when the virus mutates.

Earlier this year, scientists at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California found that people infected by Covid generate T-cells that target at least 15 to 20 different fragments of coronavirus proteins, and would work even against worrying mutations such as the 501Y.V2 mutation found in the South Africa (beta) variant.

Infections from the original Sars virus have also produced immunity in recovered patients that have lasted decades. A study by scientists in Singapore, published last week, found that Sars patients who were vaccinated against Covid produced high levels of neutralizing antibodies against both viruses.

It suggests that memory regions of the immune system were jogged into action by the vaccine, raising hope that coronavirus infection or vaccination offers long-term protection which can be easily ramped up if the virus re-emerges.

Certainly we are not seeing any indication that vaccinated people are becoming more at risk for reinfection. Although there have been some breakthrough infections with the delta variant, the vast majority (82 per cent) of people catching Covid currently have not had two doses.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is expected to advise that booster vaccinations will not be rolled out to the wider population, although some more vulnerable people may be offered a third jab. For most of us, it is likely we will be safe enough with just two.

I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?
 

SocketRocket

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I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?
Yes, I thought the same. More vulnerable people can't be expected to catch a virus that has a good chance of killing them so they are better protected afterwards.
 

Swinglowandslow

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Currently the infection rate is approx equal to the population of Bristol every two weeks and looks like it's going to get worse this winter.

There have been several posts recently mentioning the increased immunity afforded to vaccinated persons who also later become infected ( or vice versa)and that this "combination "is an immunity better than that which may be acquired by those who have only been vaccinated and then receive booster jabs.
Couple this with the apparent situation where the overwhelming percentage of serious illness now from Covid is amongst the unvaccinated, and it seems that if we, the vaccinated, come into contact with the virus, we may finish up with a population with a strong(er)immunity?
Is this the reality, or the desired answer?
Is it the inevitable only way it is going to go.?
What would the figures be if the (unfortunate) significant numbers of refusers were instead vaccinated?
 

Swinglowandslow

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Yes, I thought the same. More vulnerable people can't be expected to catch a virus that has a good chance of killing them so they are better protected afterwards.

But they needn't be vulnerable now, need they? If vaccinated!
Tricky one this, what is the risk of serious outcome if vaccinated become infected. We don't seem to be too much informed about this.
 

larmen

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After the US published a few weeks ago that 99% (or was it 95%?) of death were by unvaccinated people Germany published that they have now released numbers where 90% in ICU are unvaccinated.

I think currently it still looks fairly promising for us who have chosen to protect ourselves. My interpretation is that the numbers seems to be going up in a 4th wave, but largely by people who have chosen to participate in that wave.
 

Ethan

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I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?

The piece by PNWoke is about immune memory, and this is the usual form of long term immune response. The body can't keep antibodies gong for every previous infection/vaccination, so after about 6 months, the antibody levels drop and we go to stand-by rather than active alert. This immune memory could last years, we don't yet know.

The argument about infection vs vaccination is that natural infection exposes you to more parts of the virus so you have multiple ways of recognising a virus rather than relying on the spike protein, and this offers a theoretical advantage of greater flexibility to cover different variants. On the other hand, vaccination stimulates a higher antibody response. The combo of natural infection and vaccination therefore theoretically offers stronger immunity because you get the best of both worlds. But the risk of Covid is still substantial, so few recommend this as the preferable way forward. The better way forward remains simple vaccination.

Personally, I am unconvinced of the need for boosters for most people, unless those boosters carried updated code for delta variant.
 

Swinglowandslow

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The piece by PNWoke is about immune memory, and this is the usual form of long term immune response. The body can't keep antibodies gong for every previous infection/vaccination, so after about 6 months, the antibody levels drop and we go to stand-by rather than active alert. This immune memory could last years, we don't yet know.

The argument about infection vs vaccination is that natural infection exposes you to more parts of the virus so you have multiple ways of recognising a virus rather than relying on the spike protein, and this offers a theoretical advantage of greater flexibility to cover different variants. On the other hand, vaccination stimulates a higher antibody response. The combo of natural infection and vaccination therefore theoretically offers stronger immunity because you get the best of both worlds. But the risk of Covid is still substantial, so few recommend this as the preferable way forward. The better way forward remains simple vaccination.

Personally, I am unconvinced of the need for boosters for most people, unless those boosters carried updated code for delta variant.

Very clearly explained, thanks.
Regarding your last paragraph though, ( if I understand this matter correctly), if it is agreed that vaccine plus infection gives strongest immunity, then next strongest is vaccine plus booster, doesn't that put vaccine only as third strongest?
I read you that you think that there isn't a second and a third, just a second?, but clearly other experts think there otherwise.
If you are right, and if there is a downside to having booster jabs, then it matters. However, if there is no downside, is having them like having extra insurance at no extra cost??

So, why not, if offered?
 

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Very clearly explained, thanks.
Regarding your last paragraph though, ( if I understand this matter correctly), if it is agreed that vaccine plus infection gives strongest immunity, then next strongest is vaccine plus booster, doesn't that put vaccine only as third strongest?
I read you that you think that there isn't a second and a third, just a second?, but clearly other experts think there otherwise.
If you are right, and if there is a downside to having booster jabs, then it matters. However, if there is no downside, is having them like having extra insurance at no extra cost??

So, why not, if offered?

Well, I said need for boosters. That doesn't mean they do any harm, just may do not do much additional good.

The strongest advocates for boosters are politicians and pharma companies, FDA, CDC and EMA and plenty of independent experts remain unconvinced. There are a range of incentives at play for boosters. The Govt has bought a ton of vaccines, including Novavax and Valneva, as yet unused, and GSK to come. They also want to be associated with visible activity in dealing with the pandemic, and want to press flu vaccines at the same time. The JCVI advice makes it fairly clear that the evidential basis for the booster is a bit weak, but the Covid/flu combo strategy is a key plank of the policy. So it is unsurprising they are pushing boosters.

Vaccine plus infection may give strongest immunity, but it also adds risk for short and longer term complications. We don't know where vaccine plus booster sits in the efficacy charts.
 

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I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight.
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors.
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority. At least in England.
 

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I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight.
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors.
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority. At least in England.
I live in Worcestershire and find most people wearing masks in shops and in confined areas. I would prefer it to be mandatory though.
 

ColchesterFC

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I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight.
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors.
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority. At least in England.

I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.
 

ExRabbit

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I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.

Pretty much the same where we live.

Whilst on a walk with my wife today, I told her I was definitely not signing up for winter league again this year.

I don't want to risk indoor beers and craic after a rainy and cold day now that infection rates are rising and so many people are acting like it is all over.

I have to think about infecting older members of our family if I catch it.

I'd just be turning up and driving home afterwards most of the time if I did sign up. The craic is what makes it worthwhile for me in the winter.

I'll just play social golf this winter, as and when the weather is nice, until this stuff goes away a little bit more.
 

Hobbit

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Mask wearing here in our corner of Spain continues at a decent level. This includes outdoors in crowded areas, e.g. the local market.

Jab take up is also running at a high level with many 12 to 16 year olds getting their second jab.

Numbers of infections and hospitalisations continue to fall after the summer blip.

Cautiously confident any winter spike will be relatively small, thanks to the vaccine take up.
 

Lord Tyrion

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I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.
I'd very much agree with these numbers around here. The decline in mask wearing is notable. We even had our first 'outraged town Facebook post' from a person who walked into a shop without a mask, not exempt, and took the hump when they were asked to wear one. That post would have been unthinkable just a short while ago.
 

Tashyboy

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Went into Lidl the other day, there was only me and Missis T with masks on. Daughter came in with kids to look at skool clothes and she mentioned “ oh look at you two with masks on”. What I don’t get is the rates of infection are high in Mansfield. The only people that don’t know are those in a coma. So why don’t the people of Mansfield wears masks to cut down the risk of infection.
The mind boggles.
 
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