Conscription

[Deleted member 15344]

The World has indeed changed and not for the better. The hand wringing Liberal experiment that promotes something for nothing, the breakdown of Family virtues, multiculturalism and a legal system that favours criminals has failed spectacularly. We now need to step back and look again on what really matters and how we can give people purpose and a pride in themselves and their country.

National Service of a form will do this, anyone who has carried out basic training in the Military will know whats its like to parade as a tight knit group in front of their loved ones with their chests pumped with pride. Unfortunately this is something many young people will never experience, instead they will grow up with resentment and a feeling of worthlessness.

These suggestions that it's not possible to bring back National Service or train people so that they can be quickly made ready for service is just an example of the wishy washy claptrap we are feed these days. It's not whether we can afford it, it's whether we can afford not to.

In my opinion of course.

Or possibly the people that are saying it's not possible have spent 22 years in the military

Making people do military training isn't the answer to social problems

Still interested to know exactly who you wish to send to do military training

 

[SocketRocket]

Fair Q and one that needs an honestly thought out response . My view, and one debated with the last armed forces minister is " What is the point of a nuclear weapon if your not prepared to use it, and as it's nuclear, you would have to be prepared to be the first to use it". His response was that the UK would not be the first to strike. Things may have changed now, who knows.

Being no 2 in a nuclear strike means it's to late.

No you dont. You launch a second strike from a Nuclear Submarine out in the Oceans.

 

[SocketRocket]

Or possibly the people that are saying it's not possible have spent 22 years in the military

Making people do military training isn't the answer to social problems

Still interested to know exactly who you wish to send to do military training

Possibly, but I'm one myself Phil.

Of course it's not the only answer to social problems but it's a component. National Service could be for people in a certain age group, say 18 to 30. As I have said already there could be an option to do a longer period if you want to opt for work in Social Services. People in certain types of education and vocational training could be exempt as could be people in certain reserved occupations (Just like it was before) I know you would like me to say its should only be for unemployed and immigrants

 

[Old Skier]

No you dont. You launch a second strike from a Nuclear Submarine out in the Oceans.

Which is to late as you are already suffering from incoming.

Back to the thread. Don't disagree something needs doing but force feeding people into the military is not IMHO the answer, for one thing it would remove to many resources from the military that they don't have.

The old German model may be a possibility where those who were against joining the military had to do a couple of years in the emergency services and public sector.

To much human rights issues that would pop up every five minutes if anything like this came about.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Possibly, but I'm one myself Phil.

Of course it's not the only answer to social problems but it's a component. National Service could be for people in a certain age group, say 18 to 30. As I have said already there could be an option to do a longer period if you want to opt for work in Social Services. People in certain types of education and vocational training could be exempt as could be people in certain reserved occupations (Just like it was before) I know you would like me to say its should only be for unemployed and immigrants

So which types of education should be exempt and which occupations are exempt ?

What about our budding sports stars ?

What about people with illnesses that mean they normally couldn't join the military ?

Is it just men or is it women ?

What if they are fathers and mothers ?

What if they are single parents with children to look after ?

And no doubt a lot more questions

Certainly a lot to consider

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So which types of education should be exempt and which occupations are exempt ?

What about our budding sports stars ?

What about people with illnesses that mean they normally couldn't join the military ?

Is it just men or is it women ?

What if they are fathers and mothers ?

What if they are single parents with children to look after ?

And no doubt a lot more questions

Certainly a lot to consider

Valid points but it has worked elsewhere. These type of issues would be huge stumbling blocks and not sure how you'd overcome them

 

[Foxholer]

No you dont. You launch a second strike from a Nuclear Submarine out in the Oceans.

That's not Defence! That's Revenge!

 

[Foxholer]

The World has indeed changed and not for the better. The hand wringing Liberal experiment that promotes something for nothing, the breakdown of Family virtues, multiculturalism and a legal system that favours criminals has failed spectacularly. We now need to step back and look again on what really matters and how we can give people purpose and a pride in themselves and their country.

National Service of a form will do this, anyone who has carried out basic training in the Military will know what its like to parade as a tight knit group in front of their loved ones with their chests pumped with pride. Unfortunately this is something many young people will never experience, instead they will grow up with resentment and a feeling of worthlessness.

These suggestions that it's not possible to bring back National Service or train people so that they can be quickly made ready for service is just an example of the wishy washy claptrap we are feed these days. It's not whether we can afford it, it's whether we can afford not to.

In my opinion of course.

There is so..oo much wrong with the above, imo, that it defies any attempt to counter it.

But the fact that we can both hold different opinions says a lot for the current society. Plenty of other environments where opinions just couldn't be expressed!

 

[SocketRocket]

So which types of education should be exempt and which occupations are exempt ?

What about our budding sports stars ?

What about people with illnesses that mean they normally couldn't join the military ?

Is it just men or is it women ?

What if they are fathers and mothers ?

What if they are single parents with children to look after ?

And no doubt a lot more questions

Certainly a lot to consider

Phil the detail could be sorted out but don't expect me to resolve every case on here. It has been done before and in many countries and still happens in some European ones. If there is a will then there will be a way.

Whats the problem with sports stars, the Sun would still rise in the morning without them. You have been in the Military and know that many people are married. Illness's are obviously exempt depending on what they are. We have Men and Women in the Services. And so on and so forth, none of this retracts from the position that it would do many people a lot of good and the country as well. You seem to be just looking for loopholes and not focusing on the mainstream.

 

[SocketRocket]

There is so..oo much wrong with the above, imo, that it defies any attempt to counter it.

But the fact that we can both hold different opinions says a lot for the current society. Plenty of other environments where opinions just couldn't be expressed!

In your opinion of course!

 

[SocketRocket]

That's not Defence! That's Revenge!

Its called a Deterrent. Why do you think Submarines are used as the launch platform? If you wanted to make a first strike then you would save money by siting them on land. The deterrent is that if you Nuke Us we will Nuke you, call that revenge if you will.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil the detail could be sorted out but don't expect me to resolve every case on here. It has been done before and in many countries and still happens in some European ones. If there is a will then there will be a way.

Whats the problem with sports stars, the Sun would still rise in the morning without them. You have been in the Military and know that many people are married. Illness's are obviously exempt depending on what they are. We have Men and Women in the Services. And so on and so forth, none of this retracts from the position that it would do many people a lot of good and the country as well. You seem to be just looking for loopholes and not focusing on the mainstream.

Actually I'm just trying to show you the holes in your idea on national service - holes the size of the Grand Canyon it appears

It's just blurting an idea without thinking of the actual details involved in the implementation of the idea

To put it simply - national service will never be introduced into this country because there is no need for it and it is not practical

There is a reason why the idea was thrown out before it was even discussed

This country will not vote in a government that suggests National
Service for any age.

We have a military - they will do their job - thankfully we will still allow the generations to chose their own path in life

 

[SocketRocket]

Actually I'm just trying to show you the holes in your idea on national service - holes the size of the Grand Canyon it appears

It's just blurting an idea without thinking of the actual details involved in the implementation of the idea

To put it simply - national service will never be introduced into this country because there is no need for it and it is not practical

There is a reason why the idea was thrown out before it was even discussed

This country will not vote in a government that suggests National
Service for any age.

We have a military - they will do their job - thankfully we will still allow the generations to chose their own path in life

Well you are not convincing me of anything. You just seem to have a negative view and wont consider or admit to any of the positives. Or, you are being argumentative. I wonder which?

You suggested earlier that all people with 22 years service are against this, now where did you get that from? I had 30 years service and I know well that many of my comrades think the same way.

 

[Foxholer]

Its called a Deterrent. Why do you think Submarines are used as the launch platform? If you wanted to make a first strike then you would save money by siting them on land. The deterrent is that if you Nuke Us we will Nuke you, call that revenge if you will.

Mutually Assured Destruction! Note the initials!

Better to save money by not having them at all! There's more than enough nuclear arms about to achieve the MAD/Revenge destruction that the Trident program provides!

Anyway, back to conscription for the 'tardy' - a ridiculous concept! About as sensible as earlier (not all that long ago) government views that those that had out of wedlock children were mentally ill - so were placed in asylums!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well you are not convincing me of anything. You just seem to have a negative view and wont consider or admit to any of the positives. Or, you are being argumentative. I wonder which?

You suggested earlier that all people with 22 years service are against this, now where did you get that from? I had 30 years service and I know well that many of my comrades think the same way.

I don't need to convince you about anything because I know full well it's an idea that will not be considered by anyone who has the ability to make the choice

An MP tried a bill and it was thrown out without a debate - that should give you a hint of how the idea is received

Also you can point out where I suggest all people with 22 years of military service are against the idea

In my whole time in the military I haven't witnessed one single person suggest nary national service be re introduced

Heard a few suggest that youth offenders get a good old lesson in discipline from ex military in a bad lads army style course but certainly not putting the burden onto are already stretched armed forces.

Sorry but until someone points out a positive to national service then I will consider it - so far haven't seen any

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't need to convince you about anything because I know full well it's an idea that will not be considered by anyone who has the ability to make the choice

An MP tried a bill and it was thrown out without a debate - that should give you a hint of how the idea is received

Also you can point out where I suggest all people with 22 years of military service are against the idea

In my whole time in the military I haven't witnessed one single person suggest nary national service be re introduced

Heard a few suggest that youth offenders get a good old lesson in discipline from ex military in a bad lads army style course but certainly not putting the burden onto are already stretched armed forces.

Sorry but until someone points out a positive to national service then I will consider it - so far haven't seen any

Up to you. You can believe what you want.

 

[SocketRocket]

Mutually Assured Destruction! Note the initials!

Better to save money by not having them at all! There's more than enough nuclear arms about to achieve the MAD/Revenge destruction that the Trident program provides!

Anyway, back to conscription for the 'tardy' - a ridiculous concept! About as sensible as earlier (not all that long ago) government views that those that had out of wedlock children were mentally ill - so were placed in asylums!

Thats being ridiculous!

 

[Foxholer]

Thats being ridiculous!

Indeed! But that's what happened! At Holloway Sanatorium if you want an example. And no doubt many other such institutions.

Yep. That sort of thing, Child Labour - down mines etc - prejudice against anyone who was 'different' - whether it was Sexual orientation, Race, Disability or simply attitude - really was a superior 'Family Virtue' (I think you meant Value) period - NOT!

 

[SocketRocket]

Indeed! But that's what happened! At Holloway Sanatorium if you want an example. And no doubt many other such institutions.

Yep. That sort of thing, Child Labour - down mines etc - prejudice against anyone who was 'different' - whether it was Sexual orientation, Race, Disability or simply attitude - really was a superior 'Family Virtue' (I think you meant Value) period - NOT!

JeeZ!! I didn't suggest we shoved them up chimneys or down mines! I am talking about National Service, Period! Nothing else, got it!

EDIT: As you seem to be on a silly program of stalking my every post, which has long passed the boring stage, I am taking the advice I have been given and putting you on my ignore list so I will no longer have to suffer your nauseous diatribe!

CLICK!! Done :whoo:

 

[Foxholer]

JeeZ!! I didn't suggest we shoved them up chimneys or down mines! I am talking about National Service, Period! Nothing else, got it!

EDIT: As you seem to be on a silly program of stalking my every post....

Not stalking at all. Simply respectfully disagree-ing with some of your opinions and occasionally even noting my agreeing with them.

The World has indeed changed and not for the better. The hand wringing Liberal experiment that promotes something for nothing, the breakdown of Family virtues, multiculturalism and a legal system that favours criminals has failed spectacularly. We now need to step back and look again on what really matters and how we can give people purpose and a pride in themselves and their country.

National Service of a form will do this.....

...In my opinion of course.

As I posted, there is so much of this I disagree with the above but, as we both posted, that's my opinion!

We ARE fortunate that we are allowed to have and express those different opinions. We should be absolutely resolute in the need to allow both of them! And yes, certainly Ignore or Refute them (respectfully). To not do so would amount to Totalitarianism/Dictatorship - of course 'in my opinion'!

Btw. I forgot the obvious other category of prejudice in my earlier post. Simply being Female used to be a severe handicap in many areas - and there were occasional instances where being Male was too!