CONGU - love it or hate it?

[rosecott]

There has been a fair amount of criticism by forummers of the CONGU handicapping system with many calling for players to be allowed to decide what their handicap should be without letting the system dictate it. There have also been opinions expressed that the system is unfair to Cat 1 players who have fought hard to reach that status and even harder to maintain it. I get the feeling that some believe that the system was devised and maintained by faceless bureaucrats who sit at desks in their ivory tower analysing statistics without ever playing the game.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. The EGU’s guru and leading light on handicaps is a gentleman called James Crampton who will be presenting the EGU’s series of seminars this autumn on the 2012 CONGU UHS Handicapping System which will come into use early next year. As I recall, James has a handicap of +6, which suggests that he may be on the side of Cat 1 players as well as the rest of us.

 

[bobmac]

If this thread is for my benefit then I apologies . Obviously, my post on Clause 23 wasn't clear enough.
I wasn't criticising Congu as such and I'm sure Mr Crampton is a smashing guy.
But
It's the way the rules/directives/guidelines are interpreted that annoy me.
"Sorry cant touch your h/cap..Congu says so"

If Imurg can play below his given h/cap on a regular basis, I would say it's the h/cap secs duty to cut him to make the playing field level again for everyone.
Isn't that what phrases like "he may" or "she should" are all about? Rather than "they must"

with many calling for players to be allowed to decide what their handicap should be without letting the system dictate it.

I didn't ask for that either. I was just asking for the h/cap sec/committee to consider the cards handed in by people like Imurg and at least give them due consideration

 

[chrisd]

My club, when I was on the golf committee, often took advice from James Crampton and, within CONGU rules you couldn't argue with his decisions.

My beef is the application of CSS - I have put in some good sub par rounds off my handicap and won a major competition this year and, because of the CSS have hardly been cut, but, every bad round has seen a .1 addition. Under the pre CONGU rules (before I ever played) I am told that I would now be playing single figure golf. Everyone that I play with is striving to get their handicaps down and, for me, CONGU stands very much in the way of reasonable cuts on the good rounds.

We had a rule on the golf committee that if anyone shot a score that was equal to the course record nett then the player would get a further review and CONGU really dont like that either. I shot a 67 nett in winning and a single figure player would have to have played sub par golf to beat me and I would have been very happy with a 2 shot cut



Chris

 

[rosecott]

Did you mean you couldn't argue with James Crampton or couldn't argue with him?

 

[Hobbit]

Having been a h'cap sec for a number of years I feel CONGU have it right but it relies on h'cap sec's and committee's understanding the system, and then on occasion having the balls to be unpopular.

Any player coming to me asking for a cut would be invited into the office and we, together, would review his scores against those that others had posted. We would discuss his friendly knocks, society days etc and if I felt "we'd" missed something, or his evidence from elsewhere warranted it then a cut would be made.

Equally, if someone was having a torrid time, or age and illness were impeding their scores, they would be invited to discuss a lift in their h'cap.

However, anyone posting anything ridiculously good would have their scores for previous comps reviewed for any sign of manangement and could find thmesleves getting cut 1 or 2 shots more than they expected.

The system itself is very fair but it has to be managed and used properly.

 

[bobmac]

Any player coming to me asking for a cut would be invited into the office and we, together, would review his scores against those that others had posted. We would discuss his friendly knocks, society days etc and if I felt "we'd" missed something, or his evidence from elsewhere warranted it then a cut would be made.

That's all a player can ask for.

 

[chrisd]

Having been a h'cap sec for a number of years I feel CONGU have it right but it relies on h'cap sec's and committee's understanding the system, and then on occasion having the balls to be unpopular.

Any player coming to me asking for a cut would be invited into the office and we, together, would review his scores against those that others had posted. We would discuss his friendly knocks, society days etc and if I felt "we'd" missed something, or his evidence from elsewhere warranted it then a cut would be made.

Equally, if someone was having a torrid time, or age and illness were impeding their scores, they would be invited to discuss a lift in their h'cap.

However, anyone posting anything ridiculously good would have their scores for previous comps reviewed for any sign of manangement and could find thmesleves getting cut 1 or 2 shots more than they expected.

The system itself is very fair but it has to be managed and used properly.

But that relies an a certain standard of secretary and their own take on the CONGU rules. I like your approach but that didn't cover our secrtaries who wanted to work to the letter of the law, as they read them


Chris

 

[chrisd]

Did you mean you couldn't argue with James Crampton or couldn't argue with him?

I meant that he would interpret them in a sensible way so it was difficult to argue with him, the argument was whether the rules were right in the first place


Chris

 

[rosecott]

Having been a h'cap sec for a number of years I feel CONGU have it right but it relies on h'cap sec's and committee's understanding the system, and then on occasion having the balls to be unpopular.

Any player coming to me asking for a cut would be invited into the office and we, together, would review his scores against those that others had posted. We would discuss his friendly knocks, society days etc and if I felt "we'd" missed something, or his evidence from elsewhere warranted it then a cut would be made.

Equally, if someone was having a torrid time, or age and illness were impeding their scores, they would be invited to discuss a lift in their h'cap.

However, anyone posting anything ridiculously good would have their scores for previous comps reviewed for any sign of manangement and could find thmesleves getting cut 1 or 2 shots more than they expected.

The system itself is very fair but it has to be managed and used properly.

Well put.
Can we have it framed and posted on every club's noticeboard?

 

[fundy]

For those of you who understand them fully, do you think our handicapping system is as good/fair/accurate as the slope system?

 

[Ethan]

For those of you who understand them fully, do you think our handicapping system is as good/fair/accurate as the slope system?

The slope system used in the US ends up with broadly similar pressures on scores, i.e. both systems are set up to exert greater downward than upward pressure on the handicap.

Where the US system may be a problem is in the course ratings. Many of these seem rather inflated - pretty average courses witha course rating of 73 which in the UK would have an SSS of 70 or 71. This flatters the average American handicap by a couple of shots.

 

[Hobbit]

Having been a h'cap sec for a number of years I feel CONGU have it right but it relies on h'cap sec's and committee's understanding the system, and then on occasion having the balls to be unpopular.

Any player coming to me asking for a cut would be invited into the office and we, together, would review his scores against those that others had posted. We would discuss his friendly knocks, society days etc and if I felt "we'd" missed something, or his evidence from elsewhere warranted it then a cut would be made.

Equally, if someone was having a torrid time, or age and illness were impeding their scores, they would be invited to discuss a lift in their h'cap.

However, anyone posting anything ridiculously good would have their scores for previous comps reviewed for any sign of manangement and could find thmesleves getting cut 1 or 2 shots more than they expected.

The system itself is very fair but it has to be managed and used properly.

But that relies an a certain standard of secretary and their own take on the CONGU rules. I like your approach but that didn't cover our secrtaries who wanted to work to the letter of the law, as they read them


Chris

Playing Devil's Advocate, why should you expect a greater cut than others when you've all played the same comps and had the same CSS applied.

That said, if you've had a good summer and picked up several prizes/money I would have been tempted to cut you an extra shot. It's quite a simple science really. If you've played a few shots under CSS you'd have lost 0.6, potentially not even dropping a shot off your h'cap - say from 11.4 to 10.8. Then you do it again and drop to 10.2 givng you a one shot drop in h'cap but you've actually played 6 under for 2 rounds. If you then do it again you'd drop to 9.6, not dropping a shot off your h'cap but you've then played 9 under for 3 rounds. You might even have a few 0.1's back in the middle of it but without knowing all the detail, e.g. course conditions/weather etc I couldn't definitely say I'd cut you further but I'd be surprised if I didn't cut you using the General Play Rule.

 

[MashieNiblick]

This seems to me more a question of what status social or non-comp rounds should have in terms of h/cap. My feeling is that cards returned in qualifying comps are the gold standard and if the CONGU approach reflects that then well and good in my view.

Like most golfers I can out score my h/cap when it's just for fun off the yellows or with the whites right up but it's a different story when it's off the tombstones and there's a bit of pressure. I think a h/cap should be a measure of what you are capable of in those circumstances rather than knocking it round with your mates.

Relaxation of the supplementary card system should enable people who don't get to play many comps to put in cards and get adjustments that way. I'd be surprised however if that h'cap translated itself well to competition play.

Remember that the system should also be fair on those who play mostly comps and don't get to play much social golf. They may not see their h/caps improve in quite the same way as people who put in lots of supplementary cards or get general play cuts.

It's interesting how many people who get general play cuts then see their h/caps go up in comps back to where they were. I know. I was one.

 

[HickoryShaft]

I think the CONGU system does an overall great job.

The trouble is that it is trying to satisfy so many elements of the game and the old adage of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' comes true whenever this is the case.

I like the fact that when you post a decent score you don't get such a large cut that you never play to that H/C again - believe me I have seen this. In a previous club a few years back where the system was 'less formal' there was a guy who was off 26 I played with regularly when I was off 28 (going on 40 ish) and we always had a close game. He entered comps when the rest of us just had social games and shot a great 18 over (including a hole in one) in one round and got cut to 18. He played in about 60 (yes sixty) qualifiers and got 60 x plus 0.1 scores, he never played to 18 again in either a comp or socially. Got so disheartened he gave up the game.

So I like this element despite the fact that I am desperate to get a bigger cut and 0.3 a shot takes time.

I like the fact that when hardly anybody scores under par the comp can be declared 'reduction only' as it accounts for conditions etc.

I like the fact that the system takes into account different categories and you you drop less and less the lower you are - imagine if a 4 H/C shot 2 under and got cut 2 shots!

However, there are some issues and one thing I have seen that I think may help is a scheme that our work society H/C secretary deployed this year. This is made of of people with true CONGU H'C's and some people with 'social H/C's. Having had years where the same names always appeared for the win and prizes he wanted to even it out. If you get placed 1st - 4th you get cut 4 - 1 shots for the next game. If you have been cut and you don't get placed in the next few games you get these back at 1 shot per comp unless you are in the last 3 places where you get em back faster. You cant go higher than your true CONGU (for those that have them)unless you are in the last few places.

Clubs could adopt this for comp / medal winners i.e. win and your H/C is reduced by CONGU + a bit (to get you down by a bigger amount) then you get 1 or 0.5 back per qualifying round. This would be you club handicap. This will reduce the issue of people taking wins with really low scores off high H/C other than when they hit a sparling round (which everyone does now and then and should be rewarded for it) as the same people will either drop back a bit in the next comp and get closer to a true H/C or continue to improve do the playing H/C is more reflective of their current game.

If you travelled you would play of CONGU.