I can't seem to find where it specifies that GUR markings have to be white, can anyone point me in the right direction via the R&A website?
Colour of GUR markings
- Thread starter Twire
- Start date
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Don't think the colour is defined. Our GUR areas are marked with blue.
Rule 33-2 - The Course, simply says
"a. Defining Bounds and Margins
The Committee must define accurately:
(i) the course and out of bounds,
(ii) the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards,
(iii) ground under repair, and
(iv) obstructions and integral parts of the course."
Specimen local rule in Appendix 1 Pt B of Rules says
"2. Areas of the Course Requiring Preservation; Environmentally-Sensitive Areas
a. Ground Under Repair; Play Prohibited
If the Committee wishes to protect any area of the course, it should declare it to be ground under repair and prohibit play from within that area.The following Local Rule is recommended:
“The _____________(defined by ____) is ground under repair from which play is prohibited. If a player’s ball lies in the area, or if it interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing, the player must take relief under Rule 25-1.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.â€
From this it would appear that the means of defining an area of GUR is at the descretion of the local Committee.
I assume we use blue to distinguish it from OOB (white) and water hazards (red or yellow).
Edited to add:
Also just checked and it isn't specified in the definition of GUR in the "Definitions" section either.
Rule 33-2 - The Course, simply says
"a. Defining Bounds and Margins
The Committee must define accurately:
(i) the course and out of bounds,
(ii) the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards,
(iii) ground under repair, and
(iv) obstructions and integral parts of the course."
Specimen local rule in Appendix 1 Pt B of Rules says
"2. Areas of the Course Requiring Preservation; Environmentally-Sensitive Areas
a. Ground Under Repair; Play Prohibited
If the Committee wishes to protect any area of the course, it should declare it to be ground under repair and prohibit play from within that area.The following Local Rule is recommended:
“The _____________(defined by ____) is ground under repair from which play is prohibited. If a player’s ball lies in the area, or if it interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing, the player must take relief under Rule 25-1.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.â€
From this it would appear that the means of defining an area of GUR is at the descretion of the local Committee.
I assume we use blue to distinguish it from OOB (white) and water hazards (red or yellow).
Edited to add:
Also just checked and it isn't specified in the definition of GUR in the "Definitions" section either.
Hmmmm, thanks for that Mashie.
So when our greenkeeper sprays over the white GUR markings with green and expects every one to know that it's no longer GUR, it's asking a bit much.
I shot my best Medal score this year and got DQ'd for taking a drop out of what I thought was GUR. The worst part was, is that I was only about 18 inches off the green (they have been reworking the bunkers and apron since January).
So when our greenkeeper sprays over the white GUR markings with green and expects every one to know that it's no longer GUR, it's asking a bit much.
I shot my best Medal score this year and got DQ'd for taking a drop out of what I thought was GUR. The worst part was, is that I was only about 18 inches off the green (they have been reworking the bunkers and apron since January).
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
That's harsh. Interesting subject though. I'm on leave and it's raining so I have been on the R&A site looking at the Rules and decisions on this while waiting for the sun to come out so I can go and practise (not looking hopeful actually).
Given that it wasn't GUR and notwithstanding lack of clarity of the markings, it seems to me like you should have incurred a 2 stroke penalty for failing replace a ball which had been improperly moved (see Rules 18-2 and 20-7) and only DQ'ed if it was a "serious" breach i.e. the Committee considers you gained a "significant advantage" as a result of playing from a wrong place. As you were only just off the green that might not have been the case.
It also seems it depends on when the mix up came to light. If it was after you signed your card but before the competition was closed then you'd be DQ'ed for signing for a wrong score. (rule 6-6 and Decision 33-7/4.5). However if you didn't know you had incurred the penalty before the competition closed I think under Rule 34-1b (iii) you shouldn't be disqualified. Decision 34-1b/1 seems to confirm this. Hope I'm reading that right. It does seem a bit odd to me however that the timing makes such a difference especially as elsewhere it is clear that it is the player's responsibility to know the rules.
Now looking at the question of whether it was clear that the area was no longer GUR I can't find anything in the Rules or decisions about this and if there was a line of any sort or colour around the area (maybe even including green!?) and the Committee hadn't issued a notice clarifying how GUR was marked you might have a case. Could be worth asking your club sec to refer it to the R&A. If it gets into the decisions book it'd be quite cool.
I have to say at our place some of the GUR markings are a bit faint and the same situation could easily arise for that reason too.
It has been interesting delving into Rules 33 and 34. It has made me think however that I do not ever want to be a Rules of Golf Referee.
Apologies to any real Rules experts and aficionados if I have misunderstood, misquoted or misinterpreted any of the applicable rules.
Given that it wasn't GUR and notwithstanding lack of clarity of the markings, it seems to me like you should have incurred a 2 stroke penalty for failing replace a ball which had been improperly moved (see Rules 18-2 and 20-7) and only DQ'ed if it was a "serious" breach i.e. the Committee considers you gained a "significant advantage" as a result of playing from a wrong place. As you were only just off the green that might not have been the case.
It also seems it depends on when the mix up came to light. If it was after you signed your card but before the competition was closed then you'd be DQ'ed for signing for a wrong score. (rule 6-6 and Decision 33-7/4.5). However if you didn't know you had incurred the penalty before the competition closed I think under Rule 34-1b (iii) you shouldn't be disqualified. Decision 34-1b/1 seems to confirm this. Hope I'm reading that right. It does seem a bit odd to me however that the timing makes such a difference especially as elsewhere it is clear that it is the player's responsibility to know the rules.
Now looking at the question of whether it was clear that the area was no longer GUR I can't find anything in the Rules or decisions about this and if there was a line of any sort or colour around the area (maybe even including green!?) and the Committee hadn't issued a notice clarifying how GUR was marked you might have a case. Could be worth asking your club sec to refer it to the R&A. If it gets into the decisions book it'd be quite cool.
I have to say at our place some of the GUR markings are a bit faint and the same situation could easily arise for that reason too.
It has been interesting delving into Rules 33 and 34. It has made me think however that I do not ever want to be a Rules of Golf Referee.
Apologies to any real Rules experts and aficionados if I have misunderstood, misquoted or misinterpreted any of the applicable rules.
I think I need to look into this a bit more. I assumed I was Dq'd for signing an incorect score, but I didn't ask. I didn't know about all the confusion of the makings until after the comp had closed, as I wasn't the only one who took a drop. I was in the third group out, so was off home when the provebial hit the fan. The secretary rang me this morning, told me I was in the prizes, asked me how I played the 16th, I told him I took a drop, then he said I was DQ'd.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Interesting. According to Rule 34-1b "A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced". I wouldn't be surprised if the sec was checking up on whether people took a drop on the 16th before posting the result.
In that case the comp may not have been officially closed when the sec rang you, in which case, if I have understood all the rules mularky right, DQ under 6-6 would probably strictly speaking be correct.
Might be worth checking though. Just hope I haven't started a whole load of hares running after a shoal of red herrings. I do feel like I need a lie down though after trying to make sense of all those clauses and sub clauses.
In that case the comp may not have been officially closed when the sec rang you, in which case, if I have understood all the rules mularky right, DQ under 6-6 would probably strictly speaking be correct.
Might be worth checking though. Just hope I haven't started a whole load of hares running after a shoal of red herrings. I do feel like I need a lie down though after trying to make sense of all those clauses and sub clauses.
viscount17
Money List Winner
we've had some areas that we are 'supposed to know' are GUR = no markings, just word of mouth. How many should have incurred penalties for playing the ball in one of these areas - and how will still be taking drops when the 'non-makings' are removed?
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I thought you always had the option of playing out of GUR, unless there was a local rule prohibiting it?
viscount17
Money List Winner
if the reason for GUR is to protect the ground it wouldn't make much sense to then allow play from it.
can't you be penalised if your stance is in GUR when taking a drop from GUR
can't you be penalised if your stance is in GUR when taking a drop from GUR
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
That depends if you are getting your drop to protect GUR, or getting a drop due to an unfair lie is ground that is waiting to be repaired.
Under definitions, page 35 it says:
The comittee may make a local rule prohibiting play from GUR etc...
So unless it states you must take relief in a local rule, you don't actually have to.
Under definitions, page 35 it says:
The comittee may make a local rule prohibiting play from GUR etc...
So unless it states you must take relief in a local rule, you don't actually have to.
We have the local rule in place Murph, it states on the back of the card that you MUST take relief from GUR.
Think I'm going to have to let this one go, as I've been told my handicap will still be reduced I'm not to fussed. (Not to sure how they can adjust handicap with me taking an illegal drop though)
Think I'm going to have to let this one go, as I've been told my handicap will still be reduced I'm not to fussed. (Not to sure how they can adjust handicap with me taking an illegal drop though)
stevelev
Journeyman Pro
Cant you just put it to the rules comittee?
Or am I away wi the fairies
Or am I away wi the fairies
