'Clock face method' Pitching question

[One Planer]

I have a question for those that use this method.

I've always played these shots purely on feel and what I felt would be the correct length of swing to make. Now, I want to make things a little more solid and adopt this approach.

I understand the method itself of swinging to a position on a clockface in the back swing, say 7 o'Clock, 9 o'Clock and 11 o'Clock then making a regular swing with the chosen club.

My main question when using this method is:

Do you change anything from you normal, full swing, pitch set-up at address? Weight more on the front foot perhaps?

Is it literally a case of addressing the ball as usual and making the swings mentioned previously?

Any pointers welcome.

 

[pokerjoke]

Ive been using this method over the last couple of months,and I can safely
say it has helped with distance control.
Now you have asked the question,i do have my weight slightly more on the left
side when chipping as apposed to pitching.
Im now using the clockface drill on all my little pitches from 50 yards to 105.
I even use the 9 oclock for my wedge 115 and my 8 iron 135,of course
if I need more I can go higher.
The one thing you have to be carefull is on the lie you have.
Phil Michelson has a great you-tube on levelling out your weight,depending on the lie.

 

[SGC001]

If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.

 

[One Planer]

If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.

Useful :thup:

How about address? Any changes from a full swing?

 

[Jimbooo]

If you're going to go down this route, I suggest picking up a copy of Dave Pelz Short Game Bible... pretty much the whole book devoted to the clock face method and his 'finesse' swing. :thup:

 

[Robobum]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

 

[One Planer]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

A very good point, very well made :thup:

 

[pokerjoke]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

Yes it is quite difficult.
The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
Then its repeat,repeat until its installed mentally.

 

[pokerjoke]

Yes it is quite difficult.
The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
Then its repeat,repeat until its installed mentally.

Of course your 2 and im 6 so I bow to your superiority

 

[SGC001]

Useful :thup:

How about address? Any changes from a full swing?

It's more of a preference thing, the main thing is to be consistent with what you do, I probably wouldn't make huge changes.

Grip: May consider a more neutral grip - adjust for ball flight
Clubface aim: No real change
Body Alignment: May open feet a little if I do keeping shoulders square may stick with normal (either parallel and left (pelz flow lines) or hogans view of normal) - adjust for ball flight
Stance and posture: Probably a little narrower (smaller swing and allows weight to be put on left side a little easier) with weight slightly more left(66-35 to 55-45 depending on swing length) and more of a tendency to leave the weight there than shift it in the backswing. May consider opening left foot out a bit more. - adjust for well you get it now
Ball Position: Centre so a little further back - I'd be willing to adjust for ball flight Pelz may not.
Swing: Around set up (as it's a short club and you may be standing a little taller it may lead to this been seen as more upright, but just around posture), backswing length to control distance, syncronised turn with no real coil, holding follow through which would be a fairly full finish. Wouldn't force wrist cock (don't anyway) let it happen naturally

 

[Robobum]

The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
.

Damn it!!!!

The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
.

So no different to a "normal" pitching method. Emperor's new clothes?

 

[chrisd]

If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.

I'm just learning a similar method called the Linear Method but it involved the strike of the shot and set up too. Thoroughly agree with the above though, in particular the bit about not hitting to a target to record distances. We don't do a clock but use the P2 P3 P4 of the back and through swing. If every swing is to a pre defined pattern then you should hit specific distances with the clubs you choose. I now can hit a full wedge 100 yards by using the clubs bounce, it goes higher, lands softer and is consistant but I can still play it normal swing 125 yards

 

[SGC001]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

Don't really care it's feel as you say

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

feel

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

Feel exactly, this is just a way of developing it. edit: seen a couple of others since, Pelz says he didn't invent it just recognised it and named it.
edit II: I'm reminded of a quote along the lines of let mechanics produce and feel reproduce.

 

[pokerjoke]

Damn it!!!!



So no different to a "normal" pitching method. Emperor's new clothes?

I think it is different in the fact that you get more consistent results from knowing
exactly how far back you go for each shot.
Im not disagreeing with you,but I have seen good improvements in distance control.
Each to there own of course.

 

[SGC001]

I'm just learning a similar method called the Linear Method but it involved the strike of the shot and set up too. Thoroughly agree with the above though, in particular the bit about not hitting to a target to record distances. We don't do a clock but use the P2 P3 P4 of the back and through swing. If every swing is to a pre defined pattern then you should hit specific distances with the clubs you choose. I now can hit a full wedge 100 yards by using the clubs bounce, it goes higher, lands softer and is consistant but I can still play it normal swing 125 yards

Hoping to learn a bit more about this one later in the month, particularly about working the ball.

 

[Robobum]

I think it is different in the fact that you get more consistent results from knowing
exactly how far back you go for each shot.
Im not disagreeing with you,but I have seen good improvements in distance control.
Each to there own of course.

As you know mate, I'm the biggest advocate of doing it whatever way gets it done for you - it's the bit in bold that that I don't understand how you can know for sure, hence it still being feel.

 

[chrisd]

As you know mate, I'm the biggest advocate of doing it whatever way gets it done for you - it's the bit in bold that that I don't understand how you can know for sure, hence it still being feel.

I have always done it by feel only, but, can see the merit of a clock face type swing. You can aways video your practice until the length of back and through swing is ingrained.

At my first lesson my coach put a water bottle 16 yards away and said that a p2 backswing with his selected club should hit the bottle, first one missed by a foot, the second shot landed on the bottle! Fluke possibly but he did call it before hitting! He asked what distance my 54* club went, I said 100 yards 'ish, he said his went 107 with a full swing - it would be good to have that degree of certainty

 

[Jimbooo]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

In Pelz book, he spends a lot of it going over his 'finesse' short-game swing, before he even touches on the clock-face method. His ethos is basically what you say - how can you know you're hitting the same 8 o-clock swing every time, and he doesn't advocate moving to the clock-face/distance control chapters until you've mastered it. His finesse swing is the answer (which, among other things, is a more connected/synchronised swing between upper and lower body, and always swinging through to full finish, etc).

Personally, I'm a feel based player tho.

 

[Simbo]

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at 9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts

I use this method to an extent, but the clock times don't need to be rigid. I don't really use the 7.30 one as it's not a great distance to cover and I generally just "feel" it aswell, but the 7.30 swing was basically when my club shaft was horizontal to the ground and my 9pm swing was when my left arm was horizontal to the ground and my left shoulder nearly touched my chin, both of these I find pretty easy to pick up in my peripheral vision. The 10.30 swing is basically as far round as you can go.
I have also used video to verify what I actually think I'm doing though.

 

[SocketRocket]

I prefer the Phil Mickleson's 'Hinge and Hold method for pitching and chipping. He suggests that if anyone tries to show you the clock method you'd be best to run

The hinge and hold has you taking the club back a shorter distance with an early wrist hinge, then finishing in a high follow through while not letting the club pass your hands. You can use the same method for chipping, pitching and sand shots.

A problem with the clockface method is it can encourage too big a backswing and this can make you decelerate into the ball and duff the shot.
[video=youtube;vZWPee66M1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZWPee66M1s[/video]