Clarification help please

[bladeplayer]

Guys/Gals can ye just confirm or corrrect me on a "discussion " i had last night..


They guy i was talking to had played a "good" shot onto the green , the ball pitched in front of the flag & spun back just off the green , he opted to putt but reckoned because he was off the green he couldnt repair the pitch mark . he was referring to Rorys penalty of attending the line of his putt (sand) when off the green & having got the penalty..


After i explained the problem with Rorys was the sand he moved was not on the green , we agreed to disagree.. hadnt got my rule book in the car to check ..

Had a look at the book over breakfast & think these reflect what i said ??? yeah /no ?

(1) If you are putting off the green , it is ok to repair pitch mark on your line (16-1 c) & sand that is on the green is classed as loose impediments (on the green only top of page 29 of definitions ) .. so can be brushed away

Just checking i am reading & interpeting these correctly please ..

Thanks for your time

 

[Twire]

If you look at 16-1c it's quite clear that you can repair a pitch mark if you are off the green.


"The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the players ball lies on the putting green".

 

[CMAC]

nothing to add except keep the rules book in the bag, not car!

 

[bladeplayer]

nothing to add except keep the rules book in the bag, not car!

I was in the house tho :angry: didnt play last night , i thought i had fair understanding of these two at least , but he was adamant & was telling me "stories" & situations where penalties had been called .. i said it was news to me, but id look it up .. reason im asking here is so i dont make a tit of myself ,

 

[Colin L]

You are also right about sand and loose soil being loose impediments on the green which can be brushed away. Off the green, they are not which cost McIlroy , as you rightly remember, a 2 stroke penalty when he brushed sand away on the fringe.

 

[bladeplayer]

Thanks Colin, was fairly sure i knew this one , , just when someone puts up a good argument it gave me a few doubts , looked at the book this morning & was fair sure i had it right ,

Thanks to All , now to send a text ha , jeez this being right has a warm glow to it :whoo:

 

[MashieNiblick]

And, in the opposite case, just in case someone tries to argue that you can repair a pitchmark that is off the green the relevant Rule is 13-2 - Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

There are however a couple of interesting Decisions on this

13-2/8 Player's Lie or Line of Play Affected by Pitch-Mark Made by Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Ball

"Q. A player's lie or line of play through the green is affected by a pitch-mark made by his partner's, his opponent's or a fellow-competitor's ball. Is the player entitled to relief?

A. If the pitch-mark was there before the player's ball came to rest, he is not entitled to relief without penalty.
If the pitch-mark was created after the player's ball came to rest, in equity (Rule 1-4) he may repair the pitch-mark. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him."

And in a similar vein, with reference to sand off the green

13-2/8.5 Player's Lie Affected by Sand from Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Stroke from Bunker

"Q. A's ball is on the apron between the green and a bunker. A's partner, opponent or fellow-competitor (B) plays from the bunker and deposits sand on and around A's ball. Is A entitled to any relief?

A. Yes. A is entitled to the lie and line of play he had when his ball came to rest. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4) he is entitled to remove the sand deposited by B's stroke and lift his ball and clean it, without penalty."

I think you'd need that Decisions App handy if you wanted to apply either of those.

 

[Colin L]

I reckon the glow from looking something up and finding you had told it wrongly is even warmer

 

[bladeplayer]

And, in the opposite case, just in case someone tries to argue that you can repair a pitchmark that is off the green the relevant Rule is 13-2 - Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

There are however a couple of interesting Decisions on this

13-2/8 Player's Lie or Line of Play Affected by Pitch-Mark Made by Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Ball

"Q. A player's lie or line of play through the green is affected by a pitch-mark made by his partner's, his opponent's or a fellow-competitor's ball. Is the player entitled to relief?

A. If the pitch-mark was there before the player's ball came to rest, he is not entitled to relief without penalty.
If the pitch-mark was created after the player's ball came to rest, in equity (Rule 1-4) he may repair the pitch-mark. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him."

And in a similar vein, with reference to sand off the green

13-2/8.5 Player's Lie Affected by Sand from Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Stroke from Bunker

"Q. A's ball is on the apron between the green and a bunker. A's partner, opponent or fellow-competitor (B) plays from the bunker and deposits sand on and around A's ball. Is A entitled to any relief?

A. Yes. A is entitled to the lie and line of play he had when his ball came to rest. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4) he is entitled to remove the sand deposited by B's stroke and lift his ball and clean it, without penalty."

I think you'd need that Decisions App handy if you wanted to apply either of those.

I definatly didnt know that Mashie , thanks .. be hard to convince your playing partners id say , but hey its there in black & white ..

 

[duncan mackie]

......................

I think you'd need that Decisions App handy if you wanted to apply either of those.

Not really, it's a very simple concept in the rules that a player is entitled to the line and lie that he had when his ball came to rest.

As well as the situations above you also have those associated with re-creating the lie when two balls lie close together and the first one played 'destroys' the others known lie, most common in a pot bunker but equally applicable elsewhere.

 

[North Mimms]

So to clarify, as long as pitch mark or sand are on the green, you can deal with them, regardless of where your ball is?

 

[MashieNiblick]

So to clarify, as long as pitch mark or sand are on the green, you can deal with them, regardless of where your ball is?

Correct - Rule 16-1 a and c

a. Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:
(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;

...

"c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.
Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole."

and definition of "Loose Impediments"
"Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere."