WGCRider
Newbie
Fairly basic question. My ball has come to rest against a bunker rake but is outside the bunker. Moving the rake will mean my ball roles into the bunker. What should happen here?
Bunker rakes
- Thread starter WGCRider
- Start date
Steven Rules
Well-known member
See Rule 15.2a. Move the rake. If the ball moves, replace the ball on its original spot. The rake is a movable obstruction. Same procedure applies whether the ball and rake are in or out of the bunker - or anywhere else on the course for that matter. If the ball won't stay at rest on its original spot see Rule 14.2e - but I won't go into that here.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Given that the bold bit appears to be the OP's real question....
Here's the relevant part (only, there's more) of 14.2e...
e. What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If the player tries to replace a ball but it does not stay on its original spot, the player must try a second time.
If the ball again does not stay on that spot, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, but with these limits depending on where the original spot is located:
- The spot must not be nearer the hole.
- Original Spot in General Area. The nearest spot must be in the general area.
WGCRider
Newbie
Thanks Foxholer - that's what I was on about in my poorly worded question.
So the ball won't stay there once the rake is moved and rolls forward into the bunker. I should keep moving backwards until I find a spot that the ball a stay. I assume on a line with the pin?
So the ball won't stay there once the rake is moved and rolls forward into the bunker. I should keep moving backwards until I find a spot that the ball a stay. I assume on a line with the pin?
WGCRider
Newbie
Just a follow up question. The situation I was in the ball rolled forward into the bunker.
But what if it's the other way round - so rolls backward into the bunker once the rake is moved? My understanding is that the bunker is not part of the general area as it is a defined area. Since you can't move closer to the pin does that mean droping the other side of the bunker? (eg. if the ball in on the pin side of a fairway bunker, moving the rake means it rolls backwards into the bunker, I can't place it on it's spot without it moving, so I place it on the tee side of the bunker on the first spot where it will stay?
But what if it's the other way round - so rolls backward into the bunker once the rake is moved? My understanding is that the bunker is not part of the general area as it is a defined area. Since you can't move closer to the pin does that mean droping the other side of the bunker? (eg. if the ball in on the pin side of a fairway bunker, moving the rake means it rolls backwards into the bunker, I can't place it on it's spot without it moving, so I place it on the tee side of the bunker on the first spot where it will stay?
Colin L
Tour Winner
Or sideways. The nearest spot is just that - the nearest in any direction except forward nearer the hole
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Not necessarily on a line with the hole. Nearest point not nearer the hole might be off to the side a bit, or 'diagonally' back, or indeed straight back. To do a 'proper' job of finding the spot you should move the ball around incrementally (say half inch by half inch) until it stays at rest although (depending on the geometry, geography, steepness of slope etc of the area) it might be quite obvious after a few futile attempts that the nearest spot might be several metres away, including, as suggested, on the far side of the bunker. Note that the ball is placed not dropped.
Colin L
Tour Winner
You're making this far more complicated than it is. If your ball is moved in the process of removing a movable obstruction you must replace it on the spot where it had been. Where it has rolled to isn't relevant. It could be 10 centimetres or 10 metres away, in a bunker, in a penalty area, on the green. It could have fallen into a burn in spate and been swept away, lost forever.
All you need to do is put it back (or another ball if you can't recover your original one) where it was before you moved the rake. And if the ball won't sit still there, you find the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it will.
That's it!
Steven Rules
Well-known member
As an aside, and without wanting to labour this too much more, it is important for players to think carefully about where they position rakes after they have used them.
A poorly positioned rake - especially in and half way up the farthest side of a bunker from the hole - has the potential to trap a ball against it and cause difficult rules situations. The unfortunate owner of the ball through no fault of his/her own may be forced to take an unplayable outside the bunker.
Interpretation 14.2e/1: For example, a player's ball comes to rest on the downslope of a bunker against a rake and, in removing the rake, the ball moves. The player attempts to replace the ball as required, but it does not stay. He or she then follows the procedure of Rule 14.2e with no success and finds that there are no other spots to try in that bunker that are not nearer the hole. In this case, the player must take unplayable ball relief either by using stroke and distance for one penalty stroke (Rule 19.2a) or back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker for two penalty strokes (Rule 19.3b).
Guidance and practice may vary from club to club but it is best to leave the rake either in the bottom of the bunker or outside the bunker; definitely not halfway up the face of the bunker.
A poorly positioned rake - especially in and half way up the farthest side of a bunker from the hole - has the potential to trap a ball against it and cause difficult rules situations. The unfortunate owner of the ball through no fault of his/her own may be forced to take an unplayable outside the bunker.
Interpretation 14.2e/1: For example, a player's ball comes to rest on the downslope of a bunker against a rake and, in removing the rake, the ball moves. The player attempts to replace the ball as required, but it does not stay. He or she then follows the procedure of Rule 14.2e with no success and finds that there are no other spots to try in that bunker that are not nearer the hole. In this case, the player must take unplayable ball relief either by using stroke and distance for one penalty stroke (Rule 19.2a) or back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker for two penalty strokes (Rule 19.3b).
Guidance and practice may vary from club to club but it is best to leave the rake either in the bottom of the bunker or outside the bunker; definitely not halfway up the face of the bunker.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Absolutely.
With our bunker rebuild programme now completed with all bunkers now having near vertical reverted faces (or hugely varying depth) all round…we have a big issue with rakes being placed in bunkers either leaning against a face and straight up with rake head stopping balls rolling away from the edge, or rakes left in bunker with handle along and close to a face. Leaves a player with no backswing and impossible shot other than out sideways.
It never ceases to amaze me that players are so lazy or unaware and unthinking about what a player following might have to deal with because of where a rake has been left.
AliMc
Well-known member
We have new bunker rakes now, which, although hard to explain their make up have a sort of closed in plastic circular shaped head, anyway they work well, they have a label on the wooden handle stating that the sand should he raked away from you and to then place the rake in the centre of the bunker, playing the medal on Saturday I must have moved about 6 or 7 that had been left half in half out of the bunker, some folk just can't be bothered apparently
rulie
Head Pro
Can't read, somebody else's job, too lazy, paranoid about Covid are other possibilities, but there is no real excuse for their behaviour.
salfordlad
Well-known member
The steeper the bunker perimeters, the stronger the case for keeping rakes out of bunkers (and IMO it was already strong to begin with).
rulie
Head Pro
Where they will least interfere with play.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Exactly what the authorities recommend.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I think we will have to change our guidance to 'out' as the stupidity and/or selfishness of too many players is unlikely to change. I don't know if there are conventions for 'out' but I'd ask for rakes to be placed by side(s) of bunker away from normal direction of incoming play. Again that's likely to be more in hope than expectation.
salfordlad
Well-known member
I've seen some clubs paint the place on the ground the rakes are to be placed. There's a lot of sense in that. Clearly, many players are not capable of coming up with an intelligent location.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Some clubs have prominently located vertical tube in which to place the rakes but that can cause problems for the greenstaff.
Our rakes have integrated stands but against my advice the greens committee decided to tell players to leave then in the bunkers. Where do they leave them? With the stand outside and the rake head just inside the lip
Previously I had ruled they be left a full rake length away but some one tripped over one so they changed the rule.
Our rakes have integrated stands but against my advice the greens committee decided to tell players to leave then in the bunkers. Where do they leave them? With the stand outside and the rake head just inside the lip
Previously I had ruled they be left a full rake length away but some one tripped over one so they changed the rule.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I doubt very much we'd go down the route of the vertical tube for the reason you give. It is so very frustrating as it's not at all difficult to place/gently throw or slide our rakes (they have rounded backs to the rake heads for smoothing the sand) into the middle of our mostly narrow (front-to-back) bunkers without creating significant impressions in the sand, and besides - whatever impression might be created is generally going to be filled by the rake.Some clubs have prominently located vertical tube in which to place the rakes but that can cause problems for the greenstaff.
Our rakes have integrated stands but against my advice the greens committee decided to tell players to leave then in the bunkers. Where do they leave them? With the stand outside and the rake head just inside the lip
Previously I had ruled they be left a full rake length away but some one tripped over one so they changed the rule.
Swango1980
Well-known member
If it clearly states the rakes should be left in the middle of the bunkers, that that is what players should do. So, maybe they can't be bothered. Although, there may be more innocent explanations, outside of this being an instinct to many players. As most places don't often state what should be done, I've always personally wondered what the best thing to do would be, and can often see pros and cons in all:
Leave outside bunker: If left too close in front, it may stop ball from going in bunker, and leave nasty stance. Or, to side it might deflect ball into bunker (or nasty stance again). Perhaps it could be left further away from bunker to rule out the nasty stance issue, although I can imagine this being a pain in the backside for greenkeepers that want to cut the grass, and have to keep moving the rakes.
Leave inside bunker, towards middle: It means having to throw the rake into the middle of the bunker, especially if it is a big bunker. And, might be easy for some to do this a bit early, while in the edge of the bunker, and not rake their footprints. Also, it means the next person in the bunker has to walk into the middle of the bunker to pick up rake, and rake up after them. Time consuming if their ball is not in that area.
Half in, half out: It can cause awkward lie in the bunker
I'd imagine many pick the final option as it simply feels like it puts the rake in the most accessible position for the next person to come along. If it is placed parallel to the typical line of play towards the bunker, it may also be seen to mitigate the chance of giving a bad lie, albeit not eliminating it entirely. To be honest, I've probably played over 2000 rounds of golf in my life, and I don't ever remember having a dodgy lie due to the positioning of the rake, nor do I ever remember having to retrieve a rake from the middle of a bunker. No doubt, I'm sure both have happened at some point in my life. However, my point is, it is so incredibly rare that I just don't worry too much about the position of the rake. I'm more concerned about the lazy golfers that do not rake a bunker at all, as I've definitely been in a few foot prints in my time. Or the amount of sand the greenkeepers sometimes put in the bunker, and it embeds itself right at the top of a slope.
