Buffer Zone -

[Arthur Wedge]

To repeat what you have been told countless times. This is not true.

England Golf competition policy places no restriction on the number of GP scores that may be submitted.
Affiliated clubs, counties and approved tournament organisations are also not permitted to have such policies.

Is there not restrictions in place where someone’s HC record is required to have a certain amount of scores from “qualifying competitions” to be able to enter comps - club and at EG level

 

[Arthur Wedge]

So they increased at one end from 1 to 14 and the other from 8 to 24 at the other, so 13 shots and 16 shots higher in 18 months - how?

No idea how but they did it

We played in an Open last year where they were significantly ahead of others

The Pro there did some digging , found some old results from 18 months ago and saw the HCs of the players

That club banned them from entering Opens as did another club and spoke to EG and the offenders club - who are part of a playmore membership - and of course they have done very little with the offenders

 

[Swango1980]

Is there not restrictions in place where someone’s HC record is required to have a certain amount of scores from “qualifying competitions” to be able to enter comps - club and at EG level

I thought that was just a condition that COULD be used when competitions are over-subscribed? And, it went into more depth, in which they compared General Play Scores to Competition Scores, and if there was a significant difference (2 shots), then entry could be denied. Rather than just a flat "bog off, too many GP scores"

And, I personally don't see too much wrong with it. Preference given to players who have played lots of competition golf over those that might have played 20 rounds with their buddies in social golf.

If you are a low handicap golfer who has a big desire to play in these types of competitions, then surely you can commit yourself to playing other competitive golf to help you qualify for them?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It depends on the club. In Northumberland and Co Durham, most want a minimum of 6 competition scores out of the 8. I recently played one where your 20 scores had to be within 2 years of the date of the competition, that was a new one.

Clubs are definitely trying to combat the manipulators.

You can still play in the opens if you don't meet the criteria, you just can't win any of the prizes.

We have just the 4 in the last rolling 12 months having to be from Q comps - we will are looking at it to adjust it to maybe 5

 

[Swango1980]

No idea how but they did it

We played in an Open last year where they were significantly ahead of others

The Pro there did some digging , found some old results from 18 months ago and saw the HCs of the players

That club banned them from entering Opens as did another club and spoke to EG and the offenders club - who are part of a playmore membership - and of course they have done very little with the offenders

So, of the tens of thousands of golfers in the UK, you have given us an example of a single team that are playing of handicaps that are way too high and winning prizes. Yet, you have no idea how this happened, nor do you know how competent their handicap committee is, or what has been reported back and forth and the full extent of actions taken or not taken against the players. Apart from this club banning them.

So, how can this be brought up to criticize WHS, when you've no idea how this happenned?

If their handicaps changed by this much, one explanation is that they were simply given brand new handicaps as if they were starting the game from scratch. Maybe they moved club and never mentioned their previous handicap record? And if this is the case, this could have happened before WHS as well.

 

[wjemather]

Is there not restrictions in place where someone’s HC record is required to have a certain amount of scores from “qualifying competitions” to be able to enter comps - club and at EG level

Yes, but that isn't the same thing.
Committees can specify a minimum number of competition scores over a specified period of time (e.g. 6 comp scores in the previous 12 months), but this cannot be done in a way that restricts the number of GP scores submitted.
EG have no such conditions but do compare competition and GP returns in oversubscribed elite events to ensure entrants are not abusing GP scores to keep their HI low.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Yes, but that isn't the same thing.
Committees can specify a minimum number of competition scores over a specified period of time (e.g. 6 comp scores in the previous 12 months), but this cannot be done in a way that restricts the number of GP scores submitted.
EG have no such conditions but do compare competition and GP returns in oversubscribed elite events to ensure entrants are not abusing GP scores to keep their HI low.

Of course it’s the same thing

You can put as many GP scores in as you want

But you won’t be able to win comps or enter them without having counting competition scores in

And clubs are doing it to combat people using GP scores to manipulate their HI

It’s very clear that clubs and even Governing Bodies know that people are using GP scores to manipulate HCs and it was made easier by the system put in place

 

[D-S]

No idea how but they did it

We played in an Open last year where they were significantly ahead of others

The Pro there did some digging , found some old results from 18 months ago and saw the HCs of the players

That club banned them from entering Opens as did another club and spoke to EG and the offenders club - who are part of a playmore membership - and of course they have done very little with the offenders

But that has nothing to do with WHS.
There is a hard cap that prevents anyone increasing by more than 5 shots in a 12 months period, oddly something that didn’t exist in UHS. So 13 or 16 shots in 18 months is totally impossible without some sort of huge cheating, even then I can’t see how they can do it without entering under different names (not the case if you had tracked previous scores). They could have joined another club without admitting their previous club or CDH number, giving a different email address and a different date of birth. But this sort of ‘industrial’ cheating would have been much easier under UHS and certainly has absolutely nothing to do with the current system. To use this example as a stick to beat WHS with is frankly laughable.

 

[Swango1980]

Of course it’s the same thing

You can put as many GP scores in as you want

But you won’t be able to win comps or enter them without having counting competition scores in

And clubs are doing it to combat people using GP scores to manipulate their HI

It’s very clear that clubs and even Governing Bodies know that people are using GP scores to manipulate HCs and it was made easier by the system put in place

A Club says a Player must have x competition scores in their last 20 to enter a comp

England Golf say that if there are enough GP scores, they will be compared to competition scores, to ensure there is no significant difference between them.

Are the conditions above the same? Obviously and clearly not

 

[Arthur Wedge]

But that has nothing to do with WHS.
There is a hard cap that prevents anyone increasing by more than 5 shots in a 12 months period, oddly something that didn’t exist in UHS. So 13 or 16 shots in 18 months is totally impossible without some sort of huge cheating, even then I can’t see how they can do it without entering under different names (not the case if you had tracked previous scores). They could have joined another club without admitting their previous club or CDH number, giving a different email address and a different date of birth. But this sort of ‘industrial’ cheating would have been much easier under UHS and certainly has absolutely nothing to do with the current system. To use this example as a stick to beat WHS with is laughable.

They had the same CDH numbers etc

And how many people start a GP card after 9 holes

How many cancel a GP card as well

There are lots of ways and there will be plenty of people with examples of people’s HC fluctuating vastly using GP’s

If people think it doesn’t happen then no worries

But there is a reason why people are putting restrictions in place when it comes to the amount of GP scores on a HC record

 

[Swango1980]

Should many of these comments be transferred to another thread? There now seems to be no relevance to buffer zones. Ironically, it seems the OP is the one that has gone off on a tangent.

 

[wjemather]

Of course it’s the same thing

You can put as many GP scores in as you want

But you won’t be able to win comps or enter them without having counting competition scores in

And clubs are doing it to combat people using GP scores to manipulate their HI

It’s very clear that clubs and even Governing Bodies know that people are using GP scores to manipulate HCs and it was made easier by the system put in place

There is a very clear difference.

• Minimum 6 comp scores in previous 12 months
• Minimum 6 comp scores in most recent 20 scores

The former is acceptable, the latter is not.

And anyone claiming that requiring comp scores combats manipulation is either kidding themselves or incredibly naive (or intentionally misrepresenting the truth to push an agenda).
Likewise claiming that competition scores are superior at providing a measure of ability.

 

[Swango1980]

They had the same CDH numbers etc

And how many people start a GP card after 9 holes

How many cancel a GP card as well

There are lots of ways and there will be plenty of people with examples of people’s HC fluctuating vastly using GP’s

If people think it doesn’t happen then no worries

But there is a reason why people are putting restrictions in place when it comes to the amount of GP scores on a HC record

Have you heard of the hard cap? Although we can all think of ways that golfers can manipulate handicaps up and down, please please explain how they beat the hard cap????

The only way I can think they can do this is by their handicap committee intentionally changing their handicap.

 

[wjemather]

So they increased at one end from 1 to 14 and the other from 8 to 24 at the other, so 13 shots and 16 shots higher in 18 months - how?

It wasn't all the players, and the changes were nowhere near that dramatic, with comparisons being made with pre-WHS handicaps (i.e. many years before the events in question; one of the players concerned hadn't actually held a handicap for over 5 years).

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You are right that there is a broad spectrum in the knowledge, experience, diligence and indeed commitment of committees, however you are wrong to say that member clubs have better committees in all these aspects. Some of the best committees in my County are in proprietary clubs and some of the worst in member clubs (some of whom display wilful ignorance of the Rules of Handicapping and have the arrogance to think they know better, others are just poor).

Sorry I didn’t say better as opposed to a differing levels

At some clubs there are paid people looking after HCs and prob comps etc
Whether that be part of the GM or Pro or office

Some clubs have prob the odd volunteer who does it all

Some will have a body of volunteers forming a committee etc

 

[D-S]

They had the same CDH numbers etc

And how many people start a GP card after 9 holes

How many cancel a GP card as well

There are lots of ways and there will be plenty of people with examples of people’s HC fluctuating vastly using GP’s

If people think it doesn’t happen then no worries

But there is a reason why people are putting restrictions in place when it comes to the amount of GP scores on a HC record

The system does not allow a HI to increase more than 5 shots in a year (the hard cap), indeed it slows increases down when a player has increased by 3 shots in a 12 months period period (the soft cap). The only way an index could increase by 13 or 16 shots in an 18 month period would be for the players to get someone with access to the WHS portal to basically falsify the records of those involved by applying handicap adjustments, even then, without a deal of skullduggery, they would require the County to apply the increases. This is impossible to get for a group of players and almost unheard of for even one unless there had been a major permanent injury.
Again this scale of fraud has nothing to do with WHS as the system has checks on this and would have been marginally ‘easier’ but still hard work to do in UHS but only because their are far more electronic footprints left by players now.
Are you really saying that EG did nothing about such a significant case of massive cheating?

 

[wjemather]

You are right that there is a broad spectrum in the knowledge, experience, diligence and indeed commitment of committees, however you are wrong to say that member clubs have better committees in all these aspects. Some of the best committees in my County are in proprietary clubs and some of the worst in member clubs (some of whom display wilful ignorance of the Rules of Handicapping and have the arrogance to think they know better, others are just poor).

Absolutely. Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

[D-S]

Sorry I didn’t say better as opposed to a differing levels

At some clubs there are paid people looking after HCs and prob comps etc
Whether that be part of the GM or Pro or office

Some clubs have prob the odd volunteer who does it all

Some will have a body of volunteers forming a committee etc

When you day ‘differing levels’ isn’t that just a different way of saying better or worse? Irrespective of who does the work or takes the lead my experience tells me that some of the best (most effective) committees are in proprietary clubs and some of the worst (least effective) in member clubs and everything in between.
You said “Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees” which certainly implies less effective committees. But again the 3-4 to 17 handicaps is not a system issue, it is industrial scale cheating/fraud that.

 

[clubchamp98]

It depends on the club. In Northumberland and Co Durham, most want a minimum of 6 competition scores out of the 8. I recently played one where your 20 scores had to be within 2 years of the date of the competition, that was a new one.

Clubs are definitely trying to combat the manipulators.

You can still play in the opens if you don't meet the criteria, you just can't win any of the prizes.

Does this show clubs don’t trust the system.?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

When you day ‘differing levels’ isn’t that just a different way of saying better or worse? Irrespective of who does the work or takes the lead my experience tells me that some of the best (most effective) committees are in proprietary clubs and some of the worst (least effective) in member clubs and everything in between.
You said “Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees” which certainly implies less effective committees. But again the 3-4 to 17 handicaps is not a system issue, it is industrial scale cheating/fraud that.

Guess people’s experience will vary depending on the club and what’s in place


But the manipulation issue with WHS is there and everyone knows it’s there and it’s been discussed multiple times

Some don’t think it happens - clubs clearly do think it does with restrictions being put in place

Does this show clubs don’t trust the system.?

Very much so - even if some don’t want to see that