Buffer Zone -

[Arthur Wedge]

Or there could be a situation where your handicap increases more dramatically than 0.1. Thus, such golfers may have even more incentive to fight hard to score as well as possible, to try and limit the increase.

Again, we could paint scenarios about all sorts of hypothetical golfers why have different mentalities and motivations. Maybe there are some golfers out there that, when they know they are not going to be losing a Top 8 score, basically give up early in the round if it isn't going well. And these golfers may not feel the impact after that round, but in the future, there will be times there handicap will start to increase more than it would have done, because when they do lose Top 8 scores, they won't always have as good scores (as they would have done if they always fought to the end of every round) just outside that which will replace them.

Ultimately, such golfers may moan and blame WHS for not giving them a reason to grind. But all they are doing is admitting to the rest of the world that they have weak mentalities in such situations, and they are just trying to blame WHS rather than deal with their own internal struggles in those scenarios.

Meanwhile, there will be many golfers who have been motivated by WHS. Not just because it has made it easier to submit social scores, thus making social rounds much more meaningful to them. But also because bad form can result in fairly rapid increases, and so they are motivated to either limit those increases, or get back to form and drive their handicap back down again. Whereas with the old system, once you hit a plateau in your ability, you could pretty much stagnate at the same handicap (or within 1-2 shots of it) for years. That could be demoralizing when you hit long periods of bad golf, and being completely uncompetitive.

That’s a lot

But will look at the last bit when it comes to stagnate HCs

Surely we ESRs and the old multiple .1’s in a row and annual reviews HCs didn’t stagnate that look

The current system does allow HCs to change very quickly and that’s also caused issues with past very low HCs now getting a lot higher HCs and hoovering up

Or people manipulating the system to manufacture their HC higher as we have seen in Opens over the last couple of years


What also is a bit of a kick is playing to HC and maybe even better than HC and then seeing your HC go up because of a score from months ago coming off

 

[Swango1980]

That’s a lot

But will look at the last bit when it comes to stagnate HCs

Surely we ESRs and the old multiple .1’s in a row and annual reviews HCs didn’t stagnate that look

The current system does allow HCs to change very quickly and that’s also caused issues with past very low HCs now getting a lot higher HCs and hoovering up

Or people manipulating the system to manufacture their HC higher as we have seen in Opens over the last couple of years


What also is a bit of a kick is playing to HC and maybe even better than HC and then seeing your HC go up because of a score from months ago coming off

I assume we are focusing on players trying to grind a result to buffer? Or is this going to become a debate about every type of golfer, including golfers who want to manipulate their handicap upwards?

To try and focus on a couple of points you make:

Continuous Review: Yes, I liked the addition of these. But, it still took 7 rounds to trigger the flag (which could take many many months for some golfers, especially as most rounds were competition rounds only). And, if a player happened to creep into buffer once, the whole process was reset and they needed to get 0.1 increases in a row again. It also relied on handicap committees manually keeping on top of these, many did not.

Very low handicappers hoovering up: Is this a thing? On one hand I'm told about very low handicappers wanting to stay low. Now we are talking about very low handicappers getting increases that allows them to "hoover up" victories. And next week, we'll hear about mid to high handicappers cleaning up, and not giving the low guys a chance (well, maybe they are too low then, maybe they can get an increase and hoover up as you suggest?). At any rate, these types of golfers are not the type of golfers you were talking about in the OP.

And on the last bit, how long do you want to have to wait before letting go of a an old score, and basing your handicap on more recent scores? Would you be happier to move on after 30 rounds, 50 rounds, 100 rounds?

 

[Hobbit]

Whatever system is in use it should balance out over a year. Get a run of bad scores and your h’cap will potentially go up dramatically to reflect that. Get a run of good scores and it will go down to reflect that. Any snapshot in time might highlight some who should be lower and some who might be higher. Wherever you are on that cycle might see you win easily or miss out by miles.

What neither side of the argument will beat is the h’cap manipulators. But even then, just because they’ve scammed a few shots doesn’t mean they’ll win the next comp.

Go out and enjoy the day, and if you have one of those golden days enjoy! He’ll even the pro’s can shoot 65 one day and 75 the next…. Just don’t let it spoil your fun.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Whatever system is in use it should balance out over a year. Get a run of bad scores and your h’cap will potentially go up dramatically to reflect that. Get a run of good scores and it will go down to reflect that. Any snapshot in time might highlight some who should be lower and some who might be higher. Wherever you are on that cycle might see you win easily or miss out by miles.

What neither side of the argument will beat is the h’cap manipulators. But even then, just because they’ve scammed a few shots doesn’t mean they’ll win the next comp.

Go out and enjoy the day, and if you have one of those golden days enjoy! He’ll even the pro’s can shoot 65 one day and 75 the next…. Just don’t let it spoil your fun.

What we have seen a few times is people using that “run of scores” to go up

Had a few win comps with some very good scores , that’s moved their HC down , then a load of GP scores have gone in to move it back up again before the next big main comp

Unfortunately there is too much of a wide open goal for people to manipulate imo

 

[nickjdavis]

Someone’s scores around 5-8th etc are more than likely where someone would expect the old buffer to be so the situation is the same

The difference in the past if you don’t reach buffer then your handicap changes - in the current situation there is a chance that getting nowhere near may have no affect at all on the HC

And the situation is not just the domain of low HCs

But only in 1 in 10 rounds would the change have any effect on your old playing handicap. So the effect of missing buffer under the UHS, in most cases, was non existent, in terms of how it would affect the next round of golf.

 

[Neilds]

What we have seen a few times is people using that “run of scores” to go up

Had a few win comps with some very good scores , that’s moved their HC down , then a load of GP scores have gone in to move it back up again before the next big main comp

Unfortunately there is too much of a wide open goal for people to manipulate imo

I suspect (with no more evidence than you probably) that their handicap has only changed by a maximum of 2 shots between competitions, and even this would would have needed a lot of GP cards, all well over their current handicap. If this was the case, even the most inept handicap secretary would be able to notice this and take action.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I suspect (with no more evidence than you probably) that their handicap has only changed by a maximum of 2 shots between competitions, and even this would would have needed a lot of GP cards, all well over their current handicap. If this was the case, even the most inept handicap secretary would be able to notice this and take action.

But if they are putting in GP scores as per the rules etc how can you prove anything ?

 

[D-S]

But if they are putting in GP scores as per the rules etc how can you prove anything ?

You can review a golfers handicap index at any time if the committee believe it doesn’t represent their demonstrated ability.
With that in mind, committees can run the Competition vs General Play report for any timeframe they choose. If it is obvious that someone is scoring significantly higher in GP than Competition (which the report shows welll with % GPvs Competition and average scores in both formats) then this could be grounds for adjustment along with other evidence. There are tools that WHS gives committees that help to spot manipulation, things which were far easier to hide under UHS and supplementary scores.

 

[Swango1980]

But if they are putting in GP scores as per the rules etc how can you prove anything ?

If you have the intelligence to accuse people of sticking in GP scores to purposely get their handicap up, so that they can then do well in competitions, then hopefully Handicap Committees will also have that intelligence. And if they miss it, I'm sure members of the club, like yourself, who have noted it, will bring it to their attention.

There doesn't have to be cast iron proof of anything untoward wither, they are not on trial with a criminal prosecution. If the handicap committee think their handicap is too high, whether the reasons are innocent or otherwise, they can review the handicap and give them a cut.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You can review a golfers handicap index at any time if the committee believe it doesn’t represent their demonstrated ability.
With that in mind, committees can run the Competition vs General Play report for any timeframe they choose. If it is obvious that someone is scoring significantly higher in GP than Competition (which the report shows welll with % GPvs Competition and average scores in both formats) then this could be grounds for adjustment along with other evidence. There are tools that WHS gives committees that help to spot manipulation, things which were far easier to hide under UHS and supplementary scores.

How many clubs have volunteers as their HC committee with many of them helped by volunteers

Tools maybe there but many don’t have the time or clubs have the right expertise

And of course there are ways for people to mask it all

Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees

 

[Neilds]

How many clubs have volunteers as their HC committee with many of them helped by volunteers

Tools maybe there but many don’t have the time or clubs have the right expertise

And of course there are ways for people to mask it all

Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees

Would love to see a)the evidence of this and b) how long it took for this 'jump' to occur.

 

[D-S]

How many clubs have volunteers as their HC committee with many of them helped by volunteers

Tools maybe there but many don’t have the time or clubs have the right expertise

And of course there are ways for people to mask it all

Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees

You are right that there is a broad spectrum in the knowledge, experience, diligence and indeed commitment of committees, however you are wrong to say that member clubs have better committees in all these aspects. Some of the best committees in my County are in proprietary clubs and some of the worst in member clubs (some of whom display wilful ignorance of the Rules of Handicapping and have the arrogance to think they know better, others are just poor).

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Would love to see a)the evidence of this and b) how long it took for this 'jump' to occur.

There was a bunch of guys from the Welcome Club who were previously HC’s ranging from 1 to 8

Last year they entered Opens all over the place with HCs ranging from 14-24

The fluctuation changes over 18 months of putting in GP scores

It took people who were entering The Opens to highlight to their club and EG

 

[Hobbit]

There was a bunch of guys from the Welcome Club who were previously HC’s ranging from 1 to 8

Last year they entered Opens all over the place with HCs ranging from 14-24

The fluctuation changes over 18 months of putting in GP scores

It took people who were entering The Opens to highlight to their club and EG

I thought you were only allowed so many gp scores…?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I thought you were only allowed so many gp scores…?

You can have as many as you want but recently clubs have started to restrict entries based on GP scores - including England Golf

 

[D-S]

There was a bunch of guys from the Welcome Club who were previously HC’s ranging from 1 to 8

Last year they entered Opens all over the place with HCs ranging from 14-24

The fluctuation changes over 18 months of putting in GP scores

It took people who were entering The Opens to highlight to their club and EG

So they increased at one end from 1 to 14 and the other from 8 to 24 at the other, so 13 shots and 16 shots higher in 18 months - how?

 

[Oddsocks]

I just feel that it’s to easy to go up and down very quickly. If I was playing a match play comp this weekend, two GP cards will see me go up almost a full shot. Under the old style system with buffer etc, I would go up .2.

Not a fan on WHS in general but life changes, it is what it is. We are all playing to the same set of rules like they or not.

 

[wjemather]

You can have as many as you want but recently clubs have started to restrict entries based on GP scores - including England Golf

To repeat what you have been told countless times. This is not true.

England Golf competition policy places no restriction on the number of GP scores that may be submitted.
Affiliated clubs, counties and approved tournament organisations are also not permitted to have such policies.

 

[Swango1980]

How many clubs have volunteers as their HC committee with many of them helped by volunteers

Tools maybe there but many don’t have the time or clubs have the right expertise

And of course there are ways for people to mask it all

Have seen players jumping from 3/4 HCs to 17 HCs etc winning big opens because the club they play at - proprietary clubs , etc don’t have the same level of committees

I'd love to know how many players have jumped from a handicap of 3-4 to a handicap of 17. I mean, the quickest this increase can happen in is about 3 years, if a player keeps hitting the hard cap. And even if this happened, I'd think even some of the most incompetent handicap committees would spot a player continually hitting their hard cap? Furthermore, if they are getting success in competitions not used for handicap, hopefully that information will very quickly be passed to them.

I'd ask you three questions:

1. How many players have you seen jump from 3/4 to 17?
2. How long did this jump take?
3. Did you highlight this concern of yours to the handicap committee, just in case they didn't notice.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I thought you were only allowed so many gp scores…?

It depends on the club. In Northumberland and Co Durham, most want a minimum of 6 competition scores out of the 8. I recently played one where your 20 scores had to be within 2 years of the date of the competition, that was a new one.

Clubs are definitely trying to combat the manipulators.

You can still play in the opens if you don't meet the criteria, you just can't win any of the prizes.