Brexit Two Months On

[SocketRocket]

You are thinking negatively - a very 'British' approach!

As I posted, it's up to the negotiators - even separately to the actual Brexit deal - to stress the positives for both sides! Though it's very much more in UK's interest to get a deal than the EU's (45% of exports compared with about 10%), so it won't be easy!

It was a tongue in cheek comment.

That 10% is another lies, lies and statistics number. The 10% are very important exports to Countries like Germany, Spain, Belgium and France and not insignificant by any means. The 45% export number is falling year on year as well, it was 53% in 2015, the UK is also the EU's largest single market for export. The percentage is also questionable as it uses the exports from the UK to the rest of the world that pass through Rotterdam.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For crying out load, you are difficult. I only gave you that link as you had suggested that 'Leave' had given NO plan or suggestions on what they wanted from Brexit. You now start using it as their Tablet of Stone' Commandments, it was just an example of the many publications on how the UK could be better out the EU.

How can staying in the Single Market if it comes with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc be possible, that would not be leaving or what we all voted for. If the EU want to offer the Single Market without the restrictions then fine but can you see that happening?

I am not trying to be difficult - honest.

If staying in the single market was a no-no as it conflicted with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc then surely but surely that should have been said on that website. As it is, the website makes no mention whatsoever about the single market and having to leave it. Mention of the single market has been deliberately left out.

And of course there is the £350m/week being linked directly to a new fully-funded NHS hospital every week. That's not a mistake. Anyway.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On the migrants as pawns in the game question. I read today (in the Independent) that excluding 14% don't knows - 66% of those polled said that UK should unilaterally declare that all existing non-UK EU nationals living in the UK can stay, that UK should not hold on to this as a 'bargaining chip'; should not wait for nor expect reciprocity on it from the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...protections-from-prime-minister-a7386416.html

 

[delc]

On the migrants as pawns in the game question. I read today (in the Daily Mail I think - please forgive me) that excluding 14% don't knows - 66% of those polled said that UK should unilaterally declare that all existing non-UK EU nationals living in the UK can stay, that UK should not hold on to this as a 'bargaining chip'; should not wait for nor expect reciprocity on it from the EU.

So what happens to the Brits who live and work in other EU countries?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So what happens to the Brits who live and work in other EU countries?

You think other EU countries will kick Brits out if the UK guarantees right of residency to EU nationals resident in the UK - when nobody anywhere else has suggested such a thing might happen?

 

[SocketRocket]

I am not trying to be difficult - honest.

If staying in the single market was a no-no as it conflicted with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc then surely but surely that should have been said on that website. As it is, the website makes no mention whatsoever about the single market and having to leave it. Mention of the single market has been deliberately left out.

And of course there is the £350m/week being linked directly to a new fully-funded NHS hospital every week. That's not a mistake. Anyway.

Head, Wall. Bump, Bump, Bump!!!

I have explained to you that the link I posted was an example and others had been used in the campaign, it was in reply to a comment from you that there had been no policy or suggestions of what Brexit would bring. Please stop using it as the De-Facto policy document.

Also, regarding the money sent to the EU it was generally suggested we could use it as we wished such as more spending on the NHS, not all of it on the NHS.

If you are not trying to be being difficult then I hate to think what you are like when you are trying.

 

[delc]

You think other EU countries will kick Brits out if the UK guarantees right of residency to EU nationals resident in the UK - when nobody anywhere else has suggested such a thing might happen?

We haven't guaranteed rights of residence to existing EU nationals resident in the UK yet. There was a vote on doing so in the House of Commons last week, which was defeated by every single Conservative MP voting against it! If we don't do so at some point, then it is likely that other EU countries will retaliate by expelling UK citizens living in them!

 

[Old Skier]

We haven't guaranteed rights of residence to existing EU nationals resident in the UK yet. There was a vote on doing so in the House of Commons last week, which was defeated by every single Conservative MP voting against it! If we don't do so at some point, then it is likely that other EU countries will retaliate by expelling UK citizens living in them!

Interested to know when this happened, please send the Hansard link as it would make an interesting read.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Head, Wall. Bump, Bump, Bump!!!

I have explained to you that the link I posted was an example and others had been used in the campaign, it was in reply to a comment from you that there had been no policy or suggestions of what Brexit would bring. Please stop using it as the De-Facto policy document.

Also, regarding the money sent to the EU it was generally suggested we could use it as we wished such as more spending on the NHS, not all of it on the NHS.

If you are not trying to be being difficult then I hate to think what you are like when you are trying.

I only refer to it as you provided the link and there is no definitive Leave policy document to refer to - and that is rather my point. Can you explain why one was not created - I don't buy the 'lack of funds' argument.

 

[Foxholer]

Interested to know when this happened, please send the Hansard link as it would make an interesting read.

Will this do? Not Hansard, but a reputable Newspaper!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-work-uk-commons-european-union-a7372951.html

 

[SocketRocket]

I only refer to it as you provided the link and there is no definitive Leave policy document to refer to - and that is rather my point. Can you explain why one was not created - I don't buy the 'lack of funds' argument.

Who should have produced this document? The Remain front had the Government machine working on it's propaganda and used the Civil Service, Treasury etc to make it's case, the Government IMO should have made a policy for 'Stay' and one for 'Leave' then let the Public make a decision on which they preferred. It was wrong of Cameron to give the people a referendum that allowed them to make the decision on what was just about the biggest National issue for the country in the last 60 years without laying down the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats for both sides. It was not just a lack of funds it was the fact that it was biased and poorly managed whereby 'Fear' was used in place of information.

 

[SocketRocket]

Why would it be 'unprofessional' to name a few company names.?
You were the one claiming there were 'many'.
So far only one then.
I have never heard of them, do they employ a strong Scottish workforce?

You have never heard of Heriot Watt University? Unbelievable
https://www.hw.ac.uk/

Our terms and conditions included a clause whereby we would not pass information of our customers technology or customers to third parties.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Who should have produced this document? The Remain front had the Government machine working on it's propaganda and used the Civil Service, Treasury etc to make it's case, the Government IMO should have made a policy for 'Stay' and one for 'Leave' then let the Public make a decision on which they preferred. It was wrong of Cameron to give the people a referendum that allowed them to make the decision on what was just about the biggest National issue for the country in the last 60 years without laying down the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats for both sides. It was not just a lack of funds it was the fact that it was biased and poorly managed whereby 'Fear' was used in place of information.

The Leave campaign could easily have produced a manifesto. They need not have distributed it around every household like Remain did. I recall the discussion about lack of one. Money was the reason. And so now there is no reference point we can ALL point to and say - THAT is what the people voted for. And all this nonsense and confusion over what Brexit means would not exist. I believe that no such document was produced because there was more than one Leave group and the detail of common key objectives could not be agreed. Indeed conspiracy theory suggests that a manifesto would have formally exposed inconsistencies and issues that Leave did not what airing.

But I suppose things could be worse for us all. If Johnson was now PM we learn that Andrea Leadsom would be Chancellor - and that is beyond parody. So for TM and PH I am grateful.

 

[IanM]

Definition of Leave was made clear by the Prime Minister!! He is really peeved as promised his Masters that he'd sort it for them!

Mind you...every anti EU vote has been rerun till the plebs get it right. I wonder if this will be different?

 

[MarkE]

Jeez - how many times do I have to say I have accepted that we are leaving the EU. And asking questions is not moaning or whining - I suppose it is an easy reposte to hide behind.

But the majority of your questions hold a negative slant to brexit, so, yes it is moaning and whining. I have no need to hide behind anything, the referendum went better than I could have hoped for. Fyi, What I hoped to gain from voting for brexit was a full split from the eu, including the single market, along with all the other positives.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The Leave campaign could easily have produced a manifesto. They need not have distributed it around every household like Remain did. I recall the discussion about lack of one. Money was the reason. And so now there is no reference point we can ALL point to and say - THAT is what the people voted for. And all this nonsense and confusion over what Brexit means would not exist. I believe that no such document was produced because there was more than one Leave group and the detail of common key objectives could not be agreed. Indeed conspiracy theory suggests that a manifesto would have formally exposed inconsistencies and issues that Leave did not what airing.

But I suppose things could be worse for us all. If Johnson was now PM we learn that Andrea Leadsom would be Chancellor - and that is beyond parody. So for TM and PH I am grateful.

But quite honestly the Remain "manifesto" was not a lot of help. It offered very few positives for staying within the EU focusing far too much on the negatives of leaving.

And as for more than one Leave group I would remind you that the front-bench of the Opposition did not commit to the Remain campaign and due to the "free vote" stance of the Conservatives there was confusion.

Sadly UKIP, SNP & Lib Dems were the only ones with a united and consistent stance at a time when the public was seeking guidance from its politicians.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But quite honestly the Remain "manifesto" was not a lot of help. It offered very few positives for staying within the EU focusing far too much on the negatives of leaving.

And as for more than one Leave group I would remind you that the front-bench of the Opposition did not commit to the Remain campaign and due to the "free vote" stance of the Conservatives there was confusion.

Sadly UKIP, SNP & Lib Dems were the only ones with a united and consistent stance at a time when the public was seeking guidance from its politicians.

The Remain manifesto might not have been a lot of help - but it was something. Not having a formal Leave manifesto of any sort leaves us in the mess we are in - with the frankly unanswerable questions about what Brexit actually means and what the people voted for. Nobody actually knows.

And that is why it is quite reasonable to accept that we are leaving the EU and yet at the same time argue for such as staying in the Single Market. After all did our Foreign Secretary not argue that we can have both membership of the Single Market AND complete control over immigration - because the EU needs us and would agree to that. Well I hope so.

Meanwhile the government should do the one thing that they can without any consideration of what the EU thinks or decides - and that is to do what 66% of the electorate think - unilaterally state that all here can stay.

 

[Old Skier]

I believe the leave manifesto was to ----- um LEAVE.

 

[Old Skier]

Will this do? Not Hansard, but a reputable Newspaper!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-work-uk-commons-european-union-a7372951.html

Ta muchly. Was away in Majorca and news and papers were banned.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I believe the leave manifesto was to ----- um LEAVE.

That was definitely the impression I got, leave and not be ruled from abroad.