drdel
Tour Rookie
Most historians have concluded that Ted Heath was rather economic with the truth.
Brexit - The negotiations.
- Thread starter spongebob59
- Start date
- Status
Most historians have concluded that Ted Heath was rather economic with the truth.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Hindsight though mate, surely that’s the fear going forward......fast forward 40 years and you could have people saying “Had we, back then, had realised how much better off we’d of been staying in the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to leave”
It might take a generation for us to know for sure.
chrisd
Major Champion
I don't doubt that but we cant have known that but the Common Market was nothing more than a trading bloc as far as I recall at the time
Might be Paul, but the truth is you can never know what would have been when you go down a different road
Ethan
Money List Winner
Many might argue that, but the same people would also argue that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, that a load of countries would be queueing up to do deals and we would continue to enjoy the benefits of the single market without actuating being in it, and therefore be wrong on all of those too.
If you want to see a Federal system, look at the US. The EU is nothing like that and anyone in the UK who thinks their national identity has been eroded must have had a pretty weak or confused identity in the first place. I am from Northern Ireland and it is perfectly possible to be Northern Irish, British, Irish and European at the same time.
The ECJ was part of EEC/EU membership and was ratified by the UK Parliament.
Foxholer
Blackballed
It wasn't joining the EEC that was the 'telling' vote, though it was the only one where the public was asked their opinion (by referendum). It was John Major's commitment, through Parliament only, to agree to accept the Maastricht Treaty - and the subsequent inclusion (and funding) of ex-Soviet states that has brought about almost all of the 'trouble' from UK's pov!
chrisd
Major Champion
Thanks for the history lesson of times that I lived through and experienced first hand ?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Or Canada!
D
Deleted member 27823
Guest
I don't think that criteria leaves much that we are allowed to post about.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well, given that you refer to 'the EU' when it didn't even exist then, your recollection would seem rather poor!
Btw. I also lived through those/experienced the uncertainty of both those times - but as an 'affected observer'! I thought the EEC decision was absolutely the right thing for UK! But, as an affected, therefore somewhat biased, observer of Major's action, I was not so certain. It did, however, commit NZ to reduce its significant (massive) dependence on UK through broadening its markets.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
But the extent of its powers which have grown was never explained in advance of the 1975 referendum.
As far as I can see national identity is not under discussion for me it is far too abstract a concept to be an issue.
As for the growth of federalism, I know that you are very keen on literal definitions and,therefore, suggest you look at the definition of the word federation and then tell me that is not an accurate representation of the direction of the EU.
And please do try to not patronise others who might actually have rather more personal experience of the earlier events.
Last edited by a moderator:
chrisd
Major Champion
I think I referred to the EU in the context of what tt became after we had joined the Common Market
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
You are correct to look to the USA to see a federal state and it shows exactly the direction the EU executive are working to create in Europe.
Why do remainers keep making the pretence that suggests all trade with the EU is under threat if we leave without a free trade agreement. Trade will continue much as before, there may be some small balances in various goods but the tariffs would fairly well cancel each other, also there would be additional trade opportunities with other countries, many with lower prices. We are talking about a change in trading arrangements not the end of life as we know it.
Ethan
Money List Winner
How did I patronise you? What is your more personal experience? How do you know it is any more informed than anyone else?. Do enlighten us.
As for national identity, it is very much at the heart of Brexit, in the form of a crude animosity towards people perceived as foreigners, whether EU or not. I doubt all the people who voted for it in Farage hotspots are students of federal structures or the future economic prospects for large trade blocs.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
Did you vote in the '75 referendum, were you even old enough to vote?
Did you consider the arguments for and against?
The editorial content of the press of the day?
My original post claims no greater wisdom on the part of those of us who did, merely the knowledge of what was said at the time.
As for national identity I can only say that as a keen Remainer I engaged in many debates with those of a Leave persuasion but never once encountered the xenophobia and racism you describe.
But then I am basing this on personal experience rather than the media which just might be slanted.
Ethan
Money List Winner
No, I wasn't old enough to vote then. I did A level history, but wasn't old enough to remember WW1 or The Irish Famine either, but I think I am able to find out about them. 1975 is not exactly medieval history. There is plenty of material around about what was said and promised at the time. The central premise of your issue seems to be that the EEC/EU has evolved, and you were not told about this in 1975. But it should have been obvious that every institution evolves, and it is impossible to hold another referendum every step of the way. Ted Heath knew it would evolve but wanted to influence that evolution.
In any case, I don't accept the argument that everything is pinned to what happened on 1975. That was an event, then things moved on and needed to be considered separately and in their own context.
Personal experience and recollection can be slanted too, by the way.
If you deny that xenophobia and racism was not part of Brexit, then I don't know what planet your debates occurred on.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
What issue do I have?
My OP was purely a question for speculation on what might have been the result in 1975 had the electorate had the knowledge we now have.
As for my debates I can assure you that they were with people and not based upon second hand reports.
My OP was purely a question for speculation on what might have been the result in 1975 had the electorate had the knowledge we now have.
As for my debates I can assure you that they were with people and not based upon second hand reports.
Ethan
Money List Winner
The issue is the idea that the future oath of the EU was not spelt out to voters in 1975.
You may place too much importance on your faith that your recollection of other people's opinions, and whether those opinions were representative and informed. I think describing the written history and journalism of the time as a second hand reports is a bit dismissive.
OK, shall we call a halt here?
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
Happy to call a halt, although I didn't see this as an argument.
I still haven't heard from anyone, either there or not, if they think the result in 1975 would have been any different if we had all been blessed with a crystal ball.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Might be worth, briefly, recalling history...
The 'Common Market' was set up to help Germany recover from WW2 by protecting its steel and coal industries. It evolved as a protectionist market as the EC as membership expanded.
Heath tried to reform from within; usually blocked by France. Cameron's attempt at reforms were blocked and the UK was seen as a difficult but economically necessary member as the EU expanded East with members that need financial support.
A referendum was held and the majority in the democracy of the UK decided we should leave to EU.
An election was held where the core issues centred around the result of the earlier referendum.. The election gave a very large margin to the Party campaigning that the Brexit result should be honoured.
The UK legally ceased to be a member of the EU by a majority vote in Parliament.
The UK is negotiating how our relationship, as a sovereign, will evolve NOT end!
The EU have economic structural issues and has recently broken it's own rule to increase borrowing and future Budget. The debt will be illegally held by ECB and liability will be variously allocated to members by the 'centre'.
Verhofstadt has campaigned for increased federalisation since 2005 and Marcon is advocating similar expansion of powers over member's taxation and defence policies.
Several EU member are federations.
Perhaps we might look to the future and stop bemoaning what has transpired and look to take advantage of the UK's position as the 5th/6th largest world economy. It seems other countries across the world have more respect for us than we do ourselves.
The 'Common Market' was set up to help Germany recover from WW2 by protecting its steel and coal industries. It evolved as a protectionist market as the EC as membership expanded.
Heath tried to reform from within; usually blocked by France. Cameron's attempt at reforms were blocked and the UK was seen as a difficult but economically necessary member as the EU expanded East with members that need financial support.
A referendum was held and the majority in the democracy of the UK decided we should leave to EU.
An election was held where the core issues centred around the result of the earlier referendum.. The election gave a very large margin to the Party campaigning that the Brexit result should be honoured.
The UK legally ceased to be a member of the EU by a majority vote in Parliament.
The UK is negotiating how our relationship, as a sovereign, will evolve NOT end!
The EU have economic structural issues and has recently broken it's own rule to increase borrowing and future Budget. The debt will be illegally held by ECB and liability will be variously allocated to members by the 'centre'.
Verhofstadt has campaigned for increased federalisation since 2005 and Marcon is advocating similar expansion of powers over member's taxation and defence policies.
Several EU member are federations.
Perhaps we might look to the future and stop bemoaning what has transpired and look to take advantage of the UK's position as the 5th/6th largest world economy. It seems other countries across the world have more respect for us than we do ourselves.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Its not an argument, but is becoming a circular discussion.
I am sure the result would not have been different. Aside from a few Eurosceptic Tory MPs, joining the then EEC was a no brainer which has brought a few headaches but mostly excellent economics, and since then Europe was not a big issue for the vast majority of Brits until they were told it should be by others with their own agendas.
- Status