Brexit - The negotiations.

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PNWokingham said:
Dee day looms - let's hope Barnier is properly sidelined and the EU can show a dose of realism

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...l-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.

The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.

But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”.

They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states.

A source close to the negotiations said: “We intensified the talks in July in order to reach a broad outline of an agreement this summer.

“Due to the EU’s repeated refusal to accept that in key areas we need to do things in our own way, reflecting our new status as a sovereign, independent country, those difficult discussions are ongoing.

“We now face a critical round of negotiations in London. We will continue to set out our reasonable arguments, which have remained the same since talks began in February - that we want an agreement based on precedent. It’s time the EU accepted that so we can move on.”


The source added that the EU needs to realise Britain is “serious” about leaving with an Australian-style free trading relationship if a deal cannot be struck.

“The whole Government has been extensively preparing to ensure that businesses and citizens are ready for the end of the transition period in any scenario,” the source added. “Outside the customs union, outside the single market and outside the EU.”

Last week, a leaked government document warned of “critical gaps” in new IT systems designed to get EU borders ready for post-Brexit trade when the transition period ends in four months time.

Yet government sources insist they are so serious about preparing for leaving on Australian terms on December 31 that work on readiness is being ramped up, with officials across departments working “at pace” on Britain’s preparedness.

A new No 10 Transition Hub has been created, drawing "the best and brightest" officials from across Whitehall. Situated directly above No 10's policy unit officials in 70 Whitehall, it is tasked with having a central grip on transition work, working closely with Michael Gove and the Cabinet Office. The new unit will be staffed by civil servants in the office, with the use of live data.

Boris Johnson has insisted that the UK will still "prosper mightily" whatever the outcome of the talks.

A Whitehall source said: “For four years now we have been clear that our sovereignty is non-negotiable – and our status as an independent country will not be compromised. This is what the British people voted for and is something we will deliver on 1 January 2021, regardless of the outcome of negotiations.”

It came as the UK's chief negotiator said the Government is not "scared" of walking away from talks with the European Union without a deal and vowed not to blink in the final phase.

Lord Frost told the Mail on Sunday the UK would not agree to being a "client state" to the EU over issues such as fishery rights and vetoes on laws.

He said: "We came in after a Government and negotiating team that had blinked and had its bluff called at critical moments and the EU had learned not to take our word seriously.

"So a lot of what we are trying to do this year is to get them to realise that we mean what we say and they should take our position seriously."
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What a disgrace, just shows how treacherous May and her Brexit team/EU collaborators were.
 
Foxholer said:
BoJo 'upstages' Barnier by setting an earlier date after which negotiations will be considered pointless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54051933
Click to expand...
Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.
 
maxfli65 said:
Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.
Click to expand...

I think the strategy is akin to the 'I'll hold my breath until I faint, then you'll be sorry'. It is a behaviour characteristic of people with Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (acronym EU PD, ironically).
 
maxfli65 said:
Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.
Click to expand...
Possibly a good thing to do if all that's being allowed is bashing your head against a brick wall while your/our hands are tied behind your/our back!
I'm no lover of BoJo, nor of Brexit in the first place (but that's democracy), but I can't see Barnier/EU moving on very much, if anything, as that would likely encourage other countries that might waver from the 'European Project' to do similar. Co-operation and maybe even trade deals are, imo, likely to gradually grow after a suitable of 'rejection'. But trade (by percentage even though not by value) with EU is far more important to UK than trade with UK is to the EU/individual EU countries.
 
PNWokingham said:
Dee day looms - let's hope Barnier is properly sidelined and the EU can show a dose of realism

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...l-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.

The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.

But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”.

They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states.

A source close to the negotiations said: “We intensified the talks in July in order to reach a broad outline of an agreement this summer.

“Due to the EU’s repeated refusal to accept that in key areas we need to do things in our own way, reflecting our new status as a sovereign, independent country, those difficult discussions are ongoing.

“We now face a critical round of negotiations in London. We will continue to set out our reasonable arguments, which have remained the same since talks began in February - that we want an agreement based on precedent. It’s time the EU accepted that so we can move on.”


The source added that the EU needs to realise Britain is “serious” about leaving with an Australian-style free trading relationship if a deal cannot be struck.

“The whole Government has been extensively preparing to ensure that businesses and citizens are ready for the end of the transition period in any scenario,” the source added. “Outside the customs union, outside the single market and outside the EU.”

Last week, a leaked government document warned of “critical gaps” in new IT systems designed to get EU borders ready for post-Brexit trade when the transition period ends in four months time.

Yet government sources insist they are so serious about preparing for leaving on Australian terms on December 31 that work on readiness is being ramped up, with officials across departments working “at pace” on Britain’s preparedness.

A new No 10 Transition Hub has been created, drawing "the best and brightest" officials from across Whitehall. Situated directly above No 10's policy unit officials in 70 Whitehall, it is tasked with having a central grip on transition work, working closely with Michael Gove and the Cabinet Office. The new unit will be staffed by civil servants in the office, with the use of live data.

Boris Johnson has insisted that the UK will still "prosper mightily" whatever the outcome of the talks.

A Whitehall source said: “For four years now we have been clear that our sovereignty is non-negotiable – and our status as an independent country will not be compromised. This is what the British people voted for and is something we will deliver on 1 January 2021, regardless of the outcome of negotiations.”

It came as the UK's chief negotiator said the Government is not "scared" of walking away from talks with the European Union without a deal and vowed not to blink in the final phase.

Lord Frost told the Mail on Sunday the UK would not agree to being a "client state" to the EU over issues such as fishery rights and vetoes on laws.

He said: "We came in after a Government and negotiating team that had blinked and had its bluff called at critical moments and the EU had learned not to take our word seriously.

"So a lot of what we are trying to do this year is to get them to realise that we mean what we say and they should take our position seriously."
Click to expand...
Maybe we shouldn’t believe all we read in the papers.o_O
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ays-former-may-aide-gavin-barwell-david-frost
 
Foxholer said:
Possibly a good thing to do if all that's being allowed is bashing your head against a brick wall while your/our hands are tied behind your/our back!
I'm no lover of BoJo, nor of Brexit in the first place (but that's democracy), but I can't see Barnier/EU moving on very much, if anything, as that would likely encourage other countries that might waver from the 'European Project' to do similar. Co-operation and maybe even trade deals are, imo, likely to gradually grow after a suitable of 'rejection'. But trade (by percentage even though not by value) with EU is far more important to UK than trade with UK is to the EU/individual EU countries.
Click to expand...

But there are better opportunities with the RoW.
 
maxfli65 said:
Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.
Click to expand...

It's just playing to the hard core 'we always wanted no deal or WTO rules anyway' crowd, trying to make ourselves look hard and take no nonsense from the EU in their eyes. I do still there will be a deal with a lot of climbing down dressed up as headline victories fed to the usual suspects in the press.
 
pauldj42 said:
Maybe we shouldn’t believe all we read in the papers.o_O
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ays-former-may-aide-gavin-barwell-david-frost
Click to expand...

Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
 
Ethan said:
Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
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Again though, let’s wait and see, maybe it’s no more than media speculation.

This is what happens when you keep getting fed bluff and bluster.:rolleyes:
 
Ethan said:
Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
Click to expand...
Alternatively they are trying to show the EU they are serious about pulling out if Barnier does not budge. It sets up a plan B if required. It does not need to be enacted, just available if required.

I'm no fan of this govt but one thing is clear about the EU, if you show weakness they will bully you and walk over you. You have to stand up to them. It does not mean that we will get all that we want but hopefully it will lead to some sort of compromise. Look at the history of EU deals, they are full of bluster, refusal to budge and then 3am deals at the last minute. It is how they work unfortunately.

My understanding is that a deal is all in place with the exeception of two points, fishing and state aid. If everything else is ironed out, surely they are areas that can be resolved if both parties bend a little.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
Alternatively they are trying to show the EU they are serious about pulling out if Barnier does not budge. It sets up a plan B if required. It does not need to be enacted, just available if required.

I'm no fan of this govt but one thing is clear about the EU, if you show weakness they will bully you and walk over you. You have to stand up to them. It does not mean that we will get all that we want but hopefully it will lead to some sort of compromise. Look at the history of EU deals, they are full of bluster, refusal to budge and then 3am deals at the last minute. It is how they work unfortunately.

My understanding is that a deal is all in place with the exeception of two points, fishing and state aid. If everything else is ironed out, surely they are areas that can be resolved if both parties bend a little.
Click to expand...

It is nothing to do with bullying. If anything, the UK yakked on about the EU needing them more than the UK needed the EU, and the UK being in the stronger negotiating position. Lies, of course. The withdrawal agreement is not dependent on a trade deal being agreed. The UK made a deal, rigged the process in Parliament so it would get rushed through with little scrutiny, the current PM and Govt ministers voted for it, and now they have decided they don't like it any more, so they accuse the EU of being difficult.

The EU were always going to take a strong position on the level playing field, as they should. It is a lynchpin of their whole structure. Everyone knew that, including the UK. Now, they have the choice of walking away and taking no deal, but despite the fact they knew from the outset that this wasn't a pick and mix negotiation, they are doing a public throwing the toys out to rile up the Daily Mail and Torygraph types. The UK will back down, it is really only a matter of how they dress it up.
 
Ethan said:
It is nothing to do with bullying. If anything, the UK yakked on about the EU needing them more than the UK needed the EU, and the UK being in the stronger negotiating position. Lies, of course. The withdrawal agreement is not dependent on a trade deal being agreed. The UK made a deal, rigged the process in Parliament so it would get rushed through with little scrutiny, the current PM and Govt ministers voted for it, and now they have decided they don't like it any more, so they accuse the EU of being difficult.

The EU were always going to take a strong position on the level playing field, as they should. It is a lynchpin of their whole structure. Everyone knew that, including the UK. Now, they have the choice of walking away and taking no deal, but despite the fact they knew from the outset that this wasn't a pick and mix negotiation, they are doing a public throwing the toys out to rile up the Daily Mail and Torygraph types. The UK will back down, it is really only a matter of how they dress it up.
Click to expand...

Well said .(y)

Fishing is such a red herring,
It is a tiny amount of both sides budgets, ridiculous it should be a 'stumbling block' to the main deal.
Tory party are only thinking of appeasing their big donors from the Scottish fishing industry.
 
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Ethan said:
Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
Click to expand...

The legislation is there in case there is no agreement so there is time to enable other legislation.

It is allowing for lead times in the planning/enabling of Parliamentary time for SIs, Acts etc.

Has the EU has not 'welched' on the Canada offer Barnier tabled early in the process.
 
We keep banging on about 'no deal' as if the £700odd mill trade will evaporate over night. Trade with EU members will still continue, let's not get sucked into the hyped media stories!
 
drdel said:
We keep banging on about 'no deal' as if the £700odd mill trade will evaporate over night. Trade with EU members will still continue, let's not get sucked into the hyped media stories!
Click to expand...

And also let's not pretend that 'no deal' was ever mentioned as a serious or desirable potential outcome when the referendum occurred.
 
Doon frae Troon said:
Well said .(y)

Fishing is such a red herring,
It is a tiny amount of both sides budgets, ridiculous it should be a 'stumbling block' to the main deal.
Tory party are only thinking of appeasing their big donors from the Scottish fishing industry.
Click to expand...

The UK Govt doesn't care about fishing other than as an element of their political brand. It doesn't contribute very much to the economy (0.12% of the UK economy, 24000 jobs). More than half of all English fishing rights were sold to mostly European companies in the 1990s. The UK fleets mostly catch stuff the UK consumer doesn't eat so therefore must be exported, and most of the haddock and cod eaten here are imported.

It is all basically a throwback to the old 'war on the seas', Britannia rules the waves mentality.

In contrast, the UK Govt was happy to take a dump on the UK life sciences industry, which is at least 20x bigger than fishing, by failing to remain in the European Medicines Agency or keep the EMA HQ in the UK, both of which they could have done. The move of the EMA HQ alone probably dwarfs the economic effects of fishing, never mind all the companies which have relocated HQs and programmes to the EU. I get calls from recruiters all the time, part of being a long serving pharma medic. There has been a very clear shift out of the UK. I used to get about 2 calls regarding UK positions for every 1 in Europe, Now it is 3:1 the other way, with Switzerland (not in the EU, but in the EMA) and Benelux leading the way. Every company I know has also shifted work out of the UK, sometimes moving people, sometimes losing people.
 
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