clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
And I would add it’s also their border problem not just ours.
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
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Foxholer
Blackballed
However, the Good Friday Agreement adds a complication that is definirely more the UK's problem!
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Yes it is but once you go over the border that’s their side.
It’s a political problem
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
The EU, and indeed such as the German car industry, have stated that the integrity of the single market takes precedence over leaving with a deal. Yes - the EU may really prefer UK left with a deal - and that by definition would rule out having to trade under WTO Gatt24 - but I don’t see how UK can leave without any agreement and then trade with EU under Gatt24.
According to SJavid the EU have moved from their position of ‘no opening of the agreed deal’ - and that is seen as a victory for Johnson and his No Deal exit on 31/10’ strategy - as the government seems also to have moved from its ‘no negotiations until the backstop is completely dropped’ - and I am not aware it has done that yet the government tells us that we are in close negotiation with the EU seeking a deal.
I am easily confused and often wrong - but I don’t think I am wrong pointing out as disingenuous what Redwood is saying about leaving with no deal and immediately trading with the EU under Gatt24. And yet they continue to spout such stuff.
3offTheTee
Tour Rookie
Very simplistic I know. What is preventing us to leave and then adopt Switzerland’s position.? Think they have 5 countries bordering them but not one hard border!
robinthehood
Hacker
Ha ha... they still have free movement etc and are even part of the schengen zone
I'd rather the UK didn't adopt Switzerland's position. They, like Norway, have to adopt a number of stringent EU laws AND pay an annual lump to the EU for their trade, on top of which try taking a van or lorry into Switzerland without the right paperwork. They're an odd bunch...
For me, the Canada deal, which Tusk offered, was far a better option.
Mmm, the German car industry. That's the same industry that sells a BMW 118 into the UK for about £17.5k and, allegedly, will see a price hike of 10% post-Brexit. Wonder how they sell into Egypt for £11.6k?
You're right about the complexities of Gatt24, and of Redwood's simplistic argument, but both the EU and the UK are members of the WTO. Gatt24 isn't the only aspect of trade under WTO rules.
3offTheTee
Tour Rookie
OK, you are far more knowledgeable than most so what went wrong with The Canada deal?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
If they don't have any form of 'hard' border then who were these folks at the Swiss border that required my son and his band to go through what they had in the band van? Maybe he was mistaken and it wasn't border control. And it was a few years ago so things might have changed. However google being my friend (my bold)
In 2009, Switzerland became a participant in the Schengen Area with the acceptance of an association agreement by popular referendum in 2005. This means that there are no passport controls on Switzerland's borders with its neighbours though customs controls continue to apply.
Nothing. I read the full text of the deal a couple of months back. Gobsmacked May didn't say yes to it - David Davies did say yes to it but was knocked back by May. And he has said yes to it in recent months.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Come on Bri - Redwood's argument is not simply simplistic - it is completely disingenuous and misleading.
I bought a German car this weekend. I bought it on PCP. If that car were to increase in cost to the dealer by say £2000 would all of that cost be passed on to me? I doubt it...but even if it was I strongly suspect that the increment in my monthly PCP payment would not be such that I could not afford to buy it - or that it would put me off. We know why we buy German cars. We are happy to pay a premium in any case.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Do you not see that you have just done what so many Leave voters do all the time. Make an aspirational assertion about the future - one largely built on sand and the promises of such as Johnson, Gove and R-M - and when it is rebutted by the facts - as Bri has laid on in this instance - they do not counter him with the facts supporting their assertion - usually because they are sparse at best - but immediately change tack and look for something else to justify their Leave position.
And so it just goes on and on - as Johnson and his mates continue to pump out DomCumm Wormtongue's stuff to feed the cycle
To be honest, I doubt Redwood knows the detail of Gatt24, just as Johnson didn't when he was caught out. Was he lying? We know how Gatt24 works because we've read it, but does Redwood? From what I've seen in Westminster in recent years, most of them are thick shysters.
As for your PCP, isn't the car considered sold at the start of PCP, as its done through finance? Why would a car that's been sold then be subject to a price increase?
I thought people mainly buy cars based on what they like and can afford? I've had German cars from '98 to '18. The build quality is, in the main, good but they are basic. For choice, I wouldn't buy VW, Audi or BMW.
robinthehood
Hacker
Hmmmm it was Canada plus plus plus ....
What are the plus bits ? A bit of free movement? Perhaps adopting any number of EU rules.
All pretty unpalatable for many considering immigration and taking back control are such big things.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
The car is indeed sold and bought. But if it had been 10% more expensive to the dealer - let's say £2000 - then I would still have bought it as the increment in the monthly PCP payment would have been relatively insignificant (with the dealership probably absorbing a good bit of it) and not sufficient to put me off. And I suspect the same will apply to most UK buyers of German cars.
The fact that Johnson clearly hadn't read Gatt24 when interviewed by Neil during the leadership campaign didn't surprise me. But to suggest that Redwood hasn't yet read it and is speaking out of ignorance - sorry I just don't buy. He must know that he is being at best disingenuous - but actually closer to lying - about what UK could do under Gatt24 given a no deal exit.
But Redwood's words sate the appetite of those who need fed on an ongoing basis to support their Leave position (not all do) - especially given Redwood is one of their flag-bearers. And it is a pity that many will simply take his words at face value rather than go read Gatt24 themselves - it's not exactly long and difficult.
Likewise the conspiracy guff that was published about the Benn Act in this weekend's Sunday Mail. Indeed the QC who drafted the bill - David Lock - has since called out what was written as out-and-out Lies. And he pointed out that even the article stated (hidden way down and deep) that #10 could produce no evidence in support. But those seeking evidence of establishment stitch up and connivance with the EU will have lapped it up - and in their minds it is now 'the truth' - no matter what Lock says.
The Lie is half way around the world before the Truth gets out of bed.
BTW - the spec level of the new VW Golf is probably more than I need - and as mentioned - Mrs Hogie has always wanted a new one
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Foxholer
Blackballed
My understanding is that they (the Swiss) have 'freedom of movement' because of their Shengen Area membership. They joined in 2009 following a referendum in 2005.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Just read in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein (1966) some words that for me resonate today and that on reading them made me smile...
“Sovereign," like "love," means anything you want it to mean; it's a word in dictionary between "sober" and "sozzled.â€
“Sovereign," like "love," means anything you want it to mean; it's a word in dictionary between "sober" and "sozzled.â€
robinthehood
Hacker
Thats a Totally irrelevant reply but thanks anyway.
Foxholer
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