Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[woody69]

You never responded to my point. Please clarify that because they are representative its ok for them to ask the voting public to make the decision on a particular issue then work actively against that decision.

You think all MPs are more clued up. Really!

This is due to the complexity of the UK leaving the EU. As I have said a few times before, if the ERG / DUP had voted for the WA we would already be out. Yeah, it wasn't particularly favourable and there were a lot of negatives to what was agreed, but ultimately it delivered BREXIT from a legal standpoint. We are now further down the road with WTO terms and no transition period being a reality due to that being the default position unless extensions are agreed and therefore a large number of MPs are stepping in and saying the short to medium term damage that a "no deal" scenario is likely to create is not something that they are willing to accept. As Winston Churchill said, "The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain". You might not agree with their judgement, but that is why they are doing it.

I'm also not sure I ever said ALL MPs are clued up. Like in any profession you will have good representatives and bad representatives, but on the whole they "should" have a better understanding of the various affairs of state than your average Joe and be involved in discussions and be privvy to information that we are not. This is a problem though as there are a number of MPs that still don't really understand all of the complexities and they over-simplify extremely complex issues, usually with a soundbite in order to garner support as they look to progress their career, rather than make unpopular decisions for the greater good.

 

[gmc40]

Glad you agree. One thing Brexit has done is expose how appalling so many of them are.

I don’t think Brexit was needed to show how appalling Boris is. That was apparent a long time ago.

 

[woody69]

But surely by giving us a referendum and saying they will enact the result, they have indeed made it a direct democracy in this case?
It seems to me the remain voting people are just using every excuse in the book to try and overturn the result they lost.

Setting aside the argument that the referendum was advisory again the issue with "leave" is there isn't a simple and binary solution. There are many different versions of "leave". The problem is agreeing what the right version for Britain is. The majority of MPs accept the result and want to deliver BREXIT, but they are unable to agree on how to deliver it and that is why we are where we are.

 

[drdel]

Setting aside the argument that the referendum was advisory again the issue with "leave" is there isn't a simple and binary solution. There are many different versions of "leave". The problem is agreeing what the right version for Britain is. The majority of MPs accept the result and want to deliver BREXIT, but they are unable to agree on how to deliver it and that is why we are where we are.

About 380 voted for putting Art 50 into law!

 

[SocketRocket]

I don’t think Brexit was needed to show how appalling Boris is. That was apparent a long time ago.

So now I say something like 'Boris fades onto insignificance compared to Corbyn on the political continuum of apaulingnes' and then you retort with another Boris insult and then Fragger decides to.... Best the custard pies go back in the cupboard.

 

[SocketRocket]

About 380 voted for putting Art 50 into law!

The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated' Theres always an excuse that we should remain.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated' Theres always an excuse that we should remain.

Or if TM hadn’t called a snap election and ran with the 329 Tory MP’s who voted for Art 50 to then back her plan.

 

[woody69]

The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated' Theres always an excuse that we should remain.

Not really. A50 is just the legal mechanism for any member state to leave the EU. The fact it was voted into Law by parliament shows the result of the referendum was accepted and the initial steps to leave were put into motion.

 

[clubchamp98]

MPs today are really out of their depth .
The problem lies with past PMs who have put us in a position that we can’t really get a good deal as the EU hold most of the cards.
They have got us so deep into Europe that it’s going to cause pain to leave.
But how much pain is anyone’s guess.
And negotiations have stalled causing a no deal or remain choice as the only options imo.
It really is a mess!

 

[woody69]

MPs today are really out of their depth .
The problem lies with past PMs who have put us in a position that we can’t really get a good deal as the EU hold most of the cards.
They have got us so deep into Europe that it’s going to cause pain to leave.
But how much pain is anyone’s guess.
And negotiations have stalled causing a no deal or remain choice as the only options imo.
It really is a mess!

I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines

 

[Hobbit]

Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.

 

[Parsaregood]

Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.

As time went on there were issues invented to create tension and nervousness towards leaving the EU. Project fear had begun in earnest and the coup to retain us within the EU's net had begun. The EU dont want us to leave, a very many MP's who have been in senior positions dont want us to leave the EU. When you combine these two facts, it becomes apparent why the country has ended up in the position it is in.

 

[drdel]

So the PM doesn't want to sign the pre-defined letter that the new law says he must or risk a jail sentence

I thought anything signed under threat/duress was invalid ?

 

[SocketRocket]

I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines

None of that is relevant, we were asked to make a decision to accept Camerons proposed reformed EU or to leave. We voted to leave. Whatever the consequences are we have to put up with, it is not a matter of whether or not we have a better deal now, introducing change is often risky but leaving the EU is a change of trading arrangements, I am amazed at people who dont believe this country can manage this without catastrophic consequences.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines

I think with trade you are right.
But the interference from them on the political side, is a step to far for some.

 

[clubchamp98]

As time went on there were issues invented to create tension and nervousness towards leaving the EU. Project fear had begun in earnest and the coup to retain us within the EU's net had begun. The EU dont want us to leave, a very many MP's who have been in senior positions dont want us to leave the EU. When you combine these two facts, it becomes apparent why the country has ended up in the position it is in.

The problem is they asked us!
Now they have to do what we told them .

 

[Slime]

Saw this and had a little chuckle;

 

[SocketRocket]

Saw this and had a little chuckle;

View attachment 28176

Its life Jim, but not as we know it

 

[woody69]

Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.

Because it required the annexing of Northern Ireland to the EU.

 

[woody69]

None of that is relevant, we were asked to make a decision to accept Camerons proposed reformed EU or to leave. We voted to leave. Whatever the consequences are we have to put up with, it is not a matter of whether or not we have a better deal now, introducing change is often risky but leaving the EU is a change of trading arrangements, I am amazed at people who dont believe this country can manage this without catastrophic consequences.

It really has nothing to do with belief. A balance needs to be struck between the sacrifices that will have to be made and the impact to Britain versus any long term benefit leaving may or may not bring. Throw in the added complexity of our red lines and the fact we share a land border with the EU that under the GFA means we can't just put up a border to control trade and people it is an extremely complex problem.