SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
European law is already the highest authority in each member country.
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
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GB72
Money List Winner
Agreed, I am tryig to stay relatively neutral in this as, despite being a remainer, I appreciate that we lost the referendum. That said, I also cannot understand how it is not seen as possible that the view of the country as a whole has not changed over nearly a 3 year period now that the facts are clearer. This is a massive step to take and not one that can be fully reversed (many of our priveleges would not be available should we look to rejoin at a later date) and so it would only seem prudent to be very sure. I would expect the same calls from the other side should remain have won and then there be steps for greater european integration taken at a later stage. I appreciate that the 3 million signatures is not the same as those who voted in a referendum but but in comparision to other poles, this is massive.
If to leave is still the right thing to do and still the will of the people then a second referendum would clearly show that and the door would be open for a no deal brexit or whatever is deemed necessary but I do feel that there is a need to be sure of the result.
GB72
Money List Winner
It is slightly more nuanced than that with european law having ti be implemented into national law and no rights for the european courts to strike out national laws. There is a general agreement not to adopt laws that are incompatable with european law.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Interesting, seems the government are taking charge of the process to get indicative votes before it is taken away from them and out of their control.
GB72
Money List Winner
Should have been done ages ago. Why try and negotiate a deal when you do jot know what parliament will agree to. If we had a unified stance on day one of the negotiations things could be so different.
drdel
Tour Rookie
But we wouldn't want to stop hysteria !! Because
We're all going to starve - yet the biggest percentage of out food imports do NOT come from the EU countries.
Our cars will be more expensive - but many BMW's and Mercs models are built in USA, Mexico and the last time I looked Japan and Korea were in the Far East.
We can't buy TVs, White goods etc . But vast proportion of electronics and stuff come in from China.
drdel
Tour Rookie
There are structural global changes in the world economy as re-alignment takes place around energy, raw materials and environmental pressures. China, India, South America and Africa are changing fast and will open new markets. The EU project is outdated having developed from a political idea after WW2 because of the need to keep Germany and France locked together and then help the German steel industry. It is now just a restrictive trading bloc which simply takes money from the wealth creating members and gives it to the uncompetitive sectors/members (e.g French agriculture etc). In recent years they have kept demand alive by giving away money (QE) but now the receivers (France, Italy, Greece, Spain et al) are in so much debt and uncompetitive they can't possible earn/sell enough to pay the interest let alone pay any capital it back.
The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost.
Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and evermore growth restrained.
The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost.
Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and evermore growth restrained.
GB72
Money List Winner
Very good points well made. More well argued opinions like this being made would help both sides understand each other no end. No need to resort to taunting and vitriol. As I said, not my opinion on Brexit but has given me issues to consider.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I'm a bit confused what you mean....
Being out of the Euro is a huge factor, an opt out we will lose soon.....among others!
Are you suggesting that we should stay in the EU because by doing so we have the option to opt out of it?
Or are you saying that we'll have to join the Euro?
GB72
Money List Winner
There was a garbage story that part of a recent agreement, cannot remember the exact one off my head, was that we had agreed to join the euro by 2020 and centralise european banking to Frankfurt. Load of rubbish
D
Deleted member 21784
Guest
Yet some still believe it, much like some people still believe the money we save can go to the nhs etc etc
Once it’s out there it’s out there forever even though it’s false
Foxholer
Blackballed
That their decision won't affect the Sunderland plant - i'll continue to make the vehicle it currently does.
Xtrail production is actually moving back to Japan, the result, imo, of the FTA with the EU. https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-blamed-for-nissan-manufacturing-u-turn/
IanM
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Therin lies the problem. Lots of MPs will only accept staying in. Second Referendum was planned the morning after the first Vote.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Toyota have apparently agreed to build cars for Suzuki in UK. Global car manufacturing is restructuring because of worldwide over capacity not Brexit.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I'm in the same position, though my view is to implement the Referendum decision.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Whether a remainer or a leaver it appears that our vote will become worthless. Only the votes of the 650 will now count.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Which based on their collective demonstration of mega-idiocy is pretty worrying !!!
EU forces choice of their political lives on MPs
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS
After yesterday’s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels – while Theresa May was out of the room – here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally – at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday – vote for Theresa May’s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April – if the PM’s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about what’s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dog’s breakfast I would be insulting dog’s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows – probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit – the so-called Common Market 2.0 – and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers – led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al – would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension – since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was “not prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 Juneâ€.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News
Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS
After yesterday’s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels – while Theresa May was out of the room – here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally – at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday – vote for Theresa May’s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April – if the PM’s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about what’s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dog’s breakfast I would be insulting dog’s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows – probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit – the so-called Common Market 2.0 – and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers – led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al – would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension – since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was “not prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 Juneâ€.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News
Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Surely it’s our votes that have put them in that position?
drdel
Tour Rookie
Sadly proof that about the only thing committees can decide is the date of the next meeting - even if it isn't needed ! To paraphrase Aristotle '... don't give the power to the soldiers - they won't know what to do with it...'
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