Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 16999]

And if we wait another 3 years we will know even more, when do you reckon we will know enough?

The whole process has been a cluster from day 1, said it many times before it should of been a cross party negotiation team and we shouldn’t of allowed ourselves to be bullied by the EU.
Are you suggesting we should just accept any deal to get it over with?

As I’ve answered your question would you like to answer post #16212

 

[Jamesbrown]

What did you base that acceptance on?
The only people who mentioned No Deal was the remain side and that was dismissed as project fear!

I genuinely believe some are confusing what we know now, to what was stated during the Referendum run up.

David Cameron mentioned no deal and that we would leave on WTO terms if no deal was secured.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

David Cameron mentioned no deal and that we would leave on WTO terms if no deal was secured.

And he was mocked!

 

[Jamesbrown]

And he was mocked!

Not by me, I voted for the leap in the dark. The “decades of uncertainty”.
Admittedly now it’s just leave whatever the cost because I’ve had enough. And I suspect most leavers feel the same.

 

[drdel]

And if it isn’t?

I thought I was clear with my view.
If a Remain MP was elected in a Remain area on a party pledge to honour the result having voted for Art 50 then that person went against his own views and their voters. If said MP want to be re-elected then that dishonesty needs to be faced at the ballot box.

 

[Pro Zach]

He didnt give them more time because he could see Reeve, Letwin, Benn etc turning it into a Frankenstein monster bill with amendments that make it another surrender bill. Dont be so blinkered.

I’m not sure this makes sense. If he had carried on to the debate on the WA he may have got it through. If people had amended it to a Frankenstein bill he could have then pulled it.

It seems to me the most likely reason he didn’t carry on with the bill, is not because it might fail, but because it might have passed.

Perhaps the EU gave him this deal in the knowledge that he wouldn’t allow it to go through parliamentary debate, but be used for a general election to split the leave vote. This is what the EU and remainers need to do.

Come the general election there will be people like you voting Tory on the belief that if they get a majority they would pass this WA. Despite the fact that they didn’t try to do this when they had the chance. Others, who don’t like the deal, or would prefer no deal, will vote for the Brexit party.

If the EU hadn’t agreed to a new deal then BJ would have had to fight the election on May's deal or no deal. The former would make the Tories a laughing stock and result in pretty much no votes. Neither leavers nor remainers would vote for May's deal. The latter option would mean the Brexit party probably wouldn’t stand against them and they would have a good chance of winning a majority because they would be the only leave option.

I think the most likely election result will be Labour majority or a Labour coalition majority. They will then ‘negotiate’ a deal that keeps us in the customs union and free trade agreement. They will then put the option to the people in a referendum. Do you want to remain without any representation or remain with representation? We will of course vote to remain and it was all done ‘democratically’.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I thought I was clear with my view.
If a Remain MP was elected in a Remain area on a party pledge to honour the result having voted for Art 50 then that person went against his own views and their voters. If said MP want to be re-elected then that dishonesty needs to be faced at the ballot box.

It is clear for the current situation, I’m on about after the GE. (Apologies if I didn’t make that clear enough in the post you answered)

 

[Hobbit]

People are quick to throw the Art 50 argument in, I believe we were told we would negotiate a deal prior to starting the legal process to leave, it was the EU who stated they wouldn’t negotiate until afterwards, so when we voted we didn’t know No Deal would be part of Art 50, that came at a later date.
A lot of things we are now meant to just accept, ie shut up, were not known facts at the time of the referendum.

As I said in post #16208... you're repeating yourself. You've got stuck. Rewording it won't lead to me posting anything different in response than I posted in #16208.

As for "we didn't know No Deal would be part of Art 50..." I, again, refer you back to my response. I always thought that No Deal was a possibility. Why? Because it was never a God given promise that the EU would agree to anything. You are the one stuck on believing, and have obviously been proven wrong. You need to accept the reality of the situation, and not a soundbite you believe to be a fact.

 

[robinthehood]

It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

As I said in post #16208... you're repeating yourself. You've got stuck. Rewording it won't lead to me posting anything different in response than I posted in #16208.

As for "we didn't know No Deal would be part of Art 50..." I, again, refer you back to my response. I always thought that No Deal was a possibility. Why? Because it was never a God given promise that the EU would agree to anything. You are the one stuck on believing, and have obviously been proven wrong. You need to accept the reality of the situation, and not a soundbite you believe to be a fact.

I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you can’t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to “you ticked a box and it means........” the reality is it doesn’t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

It’s not me listening to soundbites it’s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.

 

[Dando]

It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.

They said it “should be” but when have you ever let facts stop another rant

 

[Hobbit]

I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you can’t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to “you ticked a box and it means........” the reality is it doesn’t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

It’s not me listening to soundbites it’s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.

Of course I can bring up things that have happened since but not to tell you your decision was wrong. Your decision was the right decision for you with the information you took onboard, and how you interpreted that information. I don't question your decision in the slightest. I absolutely respect your decision, and would defend your right to it to the nth degree, even though I'm a Remainer.

However, at the risk of repeating myself yet again, your comment "what we are faced with now was never..." is you repeating yourself again, again, again. As I've said, I've always accepted there was a chance that No Deal could happen.

I'll ask a question of you in the hope you can see it. Did the EU ever promise a deal? You know the answer is no. So, if a deal was never promised why do you believe you were voting for Leave with a deal? There was never a guarantee of a deal. I'll be a little presumptuous and say that you believed the soundbites by Leave campaigners.

 

[SocketRocket]

I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you can’t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to “you ticked a box and it means........” the reality is it doesn’t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

It’s not me listening to soundbites it’s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.

The ONLY thing that's different now is that a bunch of Remain Politicians have carried out every trick they can conjure up to thwart Brexit. Absolutely nothing else has changed. Cameron made it very clear at the referendum that the choice was ours, that if we voted leave there would be no customs union or single market, there would be no more referendums, we would leave with or without a deal.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Of course I can bring up things that have happened since but not to tell you your decision was wrong. Your decision was the right decision for you with the information you took onboard, and how you interpreted that information. I don't question your decision in the slightest. I absolutely respect your decision, and would defend your right to it to the nth degree, even though I'm a Remainer.

However, at the risk of repeating myself yet again, your comment "what we are faced with now was never..." is you repeating yourself again, again, again. As I've said, I've always accepted there was a chance that No Deal could happen.

I'll ask a question of you in the hope you can see it. Did the EU ever promise a deal? You know the answer is no. So, if a deal was never promised why do you believe you were voting for Leave with a deal? There was never a guarantee of a deal. I'll be a little presumptuous and say that you believed the soundbites by Leave campaigners.

You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position we’d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then you’re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and you’ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.

 

[SocketRocket]

It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.

And the deal could have been easy if it had not been for May the remainer and a bunch of politicians working actively to hamstring our negotiators.

 

[SocketRocket]

You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position we’d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then you’re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and you’ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.

The old Brexit thread was deleted from here.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The ONLY thing that's different now is that a bunch of Remain Politicians have carried out every trick they can conjure up to thwart Brexit. Absolutely nothing else has changed. Cameron made it very clear at the referendum that the choice was ours, that if we voted leave there would be no customs union or single market, there would be no more referendums, we would leave with or without a deal.

As I’ve just said to Hobbit, go and read the threads from 3 yrs back just after the vote, because you for one were posting about the deal we’d get.
But let’s not blame the negotiators or the erg or the other tories who didn’t back TM’s deal, let’s blame the Remain Politicians.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The old Brexit thread was deleted from here.

You can still find plenty of others, “Brexit 2 months on” has a 1000 posts etc.

 

[Hobbit]

You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position we’d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then you’re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and you’ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.

As per my last post, did the EU promise a deal? Its as simple as that.

Take out all the "he said, she said" you heard from politicians - thats just a sales pitch. Take out the glossy pamphlets and the experts opinions. Did the EU promise a deal? Its that simple.

There was no promise. And if there was no promise, No Deal was a possibility. Its that simple.

 

[Grant85]

As per my last post, did the EU promise a deal? Its as simple as that.

Take out all the "he said, she said" you heard from politicians - thats just a sales pitch. Take out the glossy pamphlets and the experts opinions. Did the EU promise a deal? Its that simple.

There was no promise. And if there was no promise, No Deal was a possibility. Its that simple.

Doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's a democracy... people's views change and it's not unreasonable for that view to change when provided with more detail on what the actual outcomes are.

Imagine you order fish n chips at a restaurant. Unknown to the server, they have run out of Fish n Chips.
You would expect them to come out and ask what you would prefer, rather than just cobble together Trout and a bag of Golden Woner... which is technically Fish n Chips and you have to eat it / pay for it as that's what you asked for.