Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

...
Her current deal is a bad deal, so we should strive, imo, for a better deal rather than accepting a No Deal, which looked increasingly ever likely last week.

Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?

 

[ScienceBoy]

Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?

It’s the best deal we can get that’s for sure but boy is it a bad one.

It’s bad because we are not a full EU member! That’s why!

We should be either revoking A50 or leaving without a deal. Nothing in between is good... right?

 

[Hobbit]

Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?

I love that question. I'd love to know how many people have read the agreement, and can say clause A/D/X is appalling. All those saying its a bad deal without reading it.... Mmm, says a lot.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

A few questions I've tried to answer for myself is "what is No Deal?" What are the metrics of No Deal? What are the tariffs associated with No Deal? What "rest of the world" tariffs would end, mitigating No Deal?

We've heard a lot of noise coming from politicians and experts that No Deal would lead to armageddon. Define it. Give me fact based numbers, e.g. a typical household weekly shop would have x tariffs added and y tariffs deducted. What MRA's would be prioritised by both the EU and the UK to save jobs both sides of the channel, e.g. BMW shipping parts backwards and forwards - there's a mutual interdependency there.

I've looked at the EU's own website on tariffs. It is nowhere near armageddon. A lot of products don't have any tariffs, and a lot of products only have 2.5% tariff. 25p in £10 isn't earth shattering, and then mitigated with dropping tariffs from the rest of the world.

I don't doubt there'll be ripples and some fallout, but armageddon...? I do believe some of the negatives but I also think its been a phenomenal propaganda exercise, and con, by the Remainers and the EU.

And if at the end of it all its walk away without agreeing the current deal I fully expect deals would be negotiated very soon after. No Deal isn't a full stop/end off, its only one single point in the whole ongoing process.

Of course deals will be negotiated, problem is, by who and how soon, do I believe it will be armageddon? No, I also have no idea how long any hurt will last, hopefully as short as possible.

If no deal seems quite straight forward why have both sides shy’d away from it.

For everything we’ve seen so far, nobody wants the No Deal.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?

Fully and eloquently, probably not, I’ve relied on my own research and formed my own opinion from varying resources.

A few examples are as follows:
https://labour.org.uk/issues/six-reasons-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-bad-britain/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....mays-brexit-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/amp/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ngle-market-customs-union-government-brussels





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/why-we-must-reject-mays-deal/amp/

I normally find on this forum people tend to ask this sort of question when they’re either trying to belittle another poster or make themselves look clever.

Either way I believe the poster asking the question justs looks like an ass.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I love that question. I'd love to know how many people have read the agreement, and can say clause A/D/X is appalling. All those saying its a bad deal without reading it.... Mmm, says a lot.

I would say 1 or 2 maximum Bri, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss it though, otherwise it’ll be just those 2 saying nothing. Not sure who it implies a lot about.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Would we? Had Remain won everything would have returned to what it was before within weeks if not days. The sole reason we are still discussing the campaign inaccuracies is because a number of Remain voters are not prepared to accept the result; I don’t believe this would have been the case had Leave lost. Just my opinion of course. 😉

Disagree here it’s not the voters fault it’s the MPs

If the commons wasn’t so remain dominated it would be done by now

 

[drdel]

Well the crunch has come for me - I'm changing sides. Juncker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Well the crunch has come for me - I'm changing sides. Juncker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.

Well in that case they can stick their frankfurters and sauerkraut where the sun doesn't shine 🖕😂

 

[SocketRocket]

Well in that case they can stick their frankfurters and sauerkraut where the sun doesn't shine 🖕😂

I have eaten Wurst.

 

[Old Skier]

Junker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.

That in itself is good enough for a deceleration of war against the EU.

 

[Hobbit]

I would say 1 or 2 maximum Bri, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss it though, otherwise it’ll be just those 2 saying nothing. Not sure who it implies a lot about.

But if either a Leave or Remain MP with a vested interest in political outcomes, e.g. Boris or Yvette Cooper, says its good/bad is it good or bad? In reality its both depending on your personal choice, or its neither... but what if that 'fact' is based on a lie? An individual supporting their MP might be doing so based on a lie because they haven't read up. In effect, almost quite rightly in an ideal world, they're trusting their elected representative but...

 

[Hobbit]

That in itself is good enough for a deceleration of war against the EU.

Noooo!

We have an Iceland in a town nearby. I can get Melton Mowbray pork pies here in southern Spain. I need a mule and a network of dealers.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But if either a Leave or Remain MP with a vested interest in political outcomes, e.g. Boris or Yvette Cooper, says its good/bad is it good or bad? In reality its both depending on your personal choice, or its neither... but what if that 'fact' is based on a lie? An individual supporting their MP might be doing so based on a lie because they haven't read up. In effect, almost quite rightly in an ideal world, they're trusting their elected representative but...

Fair point, but it wasn’t defeated by a few votes, it was a record breaking defeat and from opposition from all corners.

As for trusting elected representatives, I genuinely believe Brexit is far worse and done more damage than the expenses scandal.

 

[Hobbit]

Fair point, but it wasn’t defeated by a few votes, it was a record breaking defeat and from opposition from all corners.

As for trusting elected representatives, I genuinely believe Brexit is far worse and done more damage than the expenses scandal.

I agree, the deal is extremely poor. I wouldn't sign up to it. But my decision is based on what I've read, not from a politician who, from your second sentence, is part of a Parliament that to me is one of the worst in living memory.

But what about all those people/MP's that are fence sitters? All those that could or were swayed by someone with a loud voice and airtime, e.g. Farage? That doesn't change the fact that the deal is, imo, poor. But as bad as it is, is Parliament and the public best served by fence sitters and those who blindly follow the whip?

 

[Old Skier]

Noooo!

We have an Iceland in a town nearby. I can get Melton Mowbray pork pies here in southern Spain. I need a mule and a network of dealers.

The only thing I know about Iceland is they go to war over Cod, I didn't know they had an interest in Pork Pies.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I agree, the deal is extremely poor. I wouldn't sign up to it. But my decision is based on what I've read, not from a politician who, from your second sentence, is part of a Parliament that to me is one of the worst in living memory.

But what about all those people/MP's that are fence sitters? All those that could or were swayed by someone with a loud voice and airtime, e.g. Farage? That doesn't change the fact that the deal is, imo, poor. But as bad as it is, is Parliament and the public best served by fence sitters and those who blindly follow the whip?

Local MP’s up here (mainly Labour as you know) are getting a lot of stick for their stance/voting etc as the majority vote was for Leave.
At times they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, mine Graham Morris, voted with the whip a few times and abstained on a few, people want him deselected, claiming they’ll never vote Labour again etc, without coming across as arrogant, the level of ignorance is unreal and a lot firmly believe Leave meant No Deal and to hell with the consequences.
I understand every Party has to use the whip at times, but MP’s also have their own mind and their constituencies to think about.

 

[Hobbit]

Local MP’s up here (mainly Labour as you know) are getting a lot of stick for their stance/voting etc as the majority vote was for Leave.
At times they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, mine Graham Morris, voted with the whip a few times and abstained on a few, people want him deselected, claiming they’ll never vote Labour again etc, without coming across as arrogant, the level of ignorance is unreal and a lot firmly believe Leave meant No Deal and to hell with the consequences.
I understand every Party has to use the whip at times, but MP’s also have their own mind and their constituencies to think about.

TBH, I'm all for MP's voting for what is right. Note, what is right, not what they think is right. In some respects this goes right back to the beginning of the whole sorry mess. What is the truth? Both Leave and Remain are, in the first instance, political choices that people made and both are right. What the impact of both will be in the long term we don't know exactly. Some say the EU is, potentially, a house of cards, and some say the UK economy will tank.

In both cases, there might be some serious ripples but those ripples will be addressed as best as the politicians in the EU and the UK can. If Brexit does happen and the UK's economy starts to nose dive do you think the govt of the day will stand idle? Same for the EU, as the junk bonds start to mature the EU will, no doubt, judiciously address those issues.

Will the UK perform at its best immediately after Brexit? I doubt it but, equally, I don't believe in the armageddon that the hysterical ones preach.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Disagree here it’s not the voters fault it’s the MPs

If the commons wasn’t so remain dominated it would be done by now

Do you seriously think that the Remain campaign’s continual rallies and marches haven’t given the MP’s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Do you seriously think that the Remain campaign’s continual rallies and marches haven’t given the MP’s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.

If we had a leave parliament we would be gone