Boris the PM - a new beginning

[PNWokingham]

I'm not hearing that much these days from Johnson or his buddies on his 'oven-ready deal' with the EU, and 'a frictionless NI/rUK' border. Or were these always just chimeras that he spouted to convince and that many believed.

The "oven ready" quote, as you well know, was reference to a deal largely like Canada, that the EU had offered May and that Johnson, with a government majority, had then said "yes" to. And, then the new issue of proximity came in to justify the EU backtracking very clearly from what had been offered! But i suppose that you see this is Johnson and the British side asking for extravagant demands and blaming them for not caving in to EU demands and thus the "oven ready" deal that was offered and then pulled by one sde, was made more complicated

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The "oven ready" quote, as you well know, was reference to a deal largely like Canada, that the EU had offered May and that Johnson, with a government majority, had then said "yes" to. And, then the new issue of proximity came in to justify the EU backtracking very clearly from what had been offered! But i suppose that you see this is Johnson and the British side asking for extravagant demands and blaming them for not caving in to EU demands and thus the "oven ready" deal that was offered and then pulled by one sde, was made more complicated

No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up.

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go. He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over. And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making. That the EU back-tracked from what they may have previously offered the UK then that was done in a different context - with the EU having perhaps different expectations of the UK at that time.

 

[Hobbit]

No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up.

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go. He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over. And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making.

I notice you didn't reply to the bit about the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered.

Its always the UK's fault with you. How about, just once, acknowledging that both sides are a bit slippery... if you can of course.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I notice you didn't reply to the bit about the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered.

Its always the UK's fault with you. How about, just once, acknowledging that both sides are a bit slippery... if you can of course.

I did reflect on the comment. But I wouldn't sell something to that public that is only in prototype and depends upon a partner or 3rd party supplier who is not fully engaged, and that you know could walk away if they are not happy with their conditions of contract. And our lead salesman has been Johnson. He has sold the product and our partner has walked away - or has asked to renegotiate new terms of engagement - as you might expect a loosely engaged 3rd party partner to do if they could see benefit to themselves from doing so.

Maybe we should have accepted the Canada-style deal when it was offered and got the EU tied into it so they couldn't walk away. But we didn't.

 

[Hobbit]

I did reflect on the comment. But I wouldn't sell something to that public that is only in prototype and depends upon a 3rd party supplier who is not fully engaged and that you know could walk away if they are not happy with their conditions of contract.

Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?

What you list I suggest are things that we have known could happen all along. The sort of things that during the referendum debate were flagged up as risks or potential problems - but were dismissed as Project Fear. That some or all have come to pass should surprise no-one.

But actually - all I want is for Johnson, Gove et al to be honest and straight with the UK electorate. The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.

 

[Hobbit]

All I want is for Johnson, Gove et al to be honest and straight with the UK electorate. The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.

Is there a chance of you answering the questions? Or are you going to continue to avoid them?

I don't want this Tory govt, and I'm sure you've read my point that I believe Johnson is Trump-lite. However, I want the best deal for this country. Being Johnson's moral compass, as you appear to want to be, is a complete waste of time. He has a long history, as you say, and he will continue in the same vein. You brought up the trade deal aspect.... do you want what the best deal for the UK or not? Spin and posturing has happened on both sides but you only choose to point the finger at the UK side.

 

[DanFST]

The spins and deceits around Brexit are history - as is Brexit, but they are symptomatic of a politician who, it seems, will say whatever best suits his ends - and - as they say - a leopard does not change its spots.

They are all self serving. They all lie. You don't become an MP being honest.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

They are all self serving. They all lie. You don't become an MP being honest.

That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and avoidance. And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister. In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support. That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?

 

[Hobbit]

That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and avoidance. And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister. In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support. That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?

"Avoidance..."

Where do YOU stand on the EU's demands? We know what was flagged up but do you side with the UK on each of those questions or are you going to continue to avoid them as you usually do when someone asks you to make a choice between what is best for the UK or the EU?

Alternatively, we can just accept your silence as affirmation that you want the UK to fail and for it to be ruled by Brussels.

 

[drdel]

That does not mean they can get away with blatant deceptions and avoidance. And Johnson is not just 'any' politician - he is our Prime Minister. In the context of the pandemic and 'life after', the electorate as a whole needs to build up at least a semblance of trust in him - there is no point, and it is I believe unhealthy, to direct your messages to you 'own' support. That's relatively easy - but it's not what is required.

It's a pity (at best) that of all the PMs and governments since Thatcher's time we could have had to lead us through the pandemic, we have this shower. And for their followers - no matter, it seems, how heavy is the downpour - the cry goes up - rain? what rain?

I wonder if you have conducted any research by reading some of the European press? You might have missed the fact that the EU is far from secure economically and their federalist ambitions have significantly increased as they seek to annex more (negatively contributing) eastern countries. You may have missed that numerous matters between the UK and EU have been agreed.

Even since 2016 it is clear the world of trade and services has changed; it has certainly outpaced the EU's strategy and left behind the 'fear' stories. The UK is far better placed to manage the issues of Covid 19 and the slump in industrial output/consumption. Hell will be well and truly frozen over before you see the UK in a positive way.

 

[PNWokingham]

No - I see what I heard - Boris Johnson telling the electorate that he had a deal ready-to-go - no issues - just needs heating up.

Except he did not actually have a deal agreed with the EU and ready-to-go. He had a model for a UK-EU deal to go into discussions over. And that is 100% not the same thing at all - but it sounds good and convincing along the lines of David Davis's easy-as-pie deal-making. That the EU back-tracked from what they may have previously offered the UK then that was done in a different context - with the EU having perhaps different expectations of the UK at that time.

He had a basis for a relatively easy trade deal - if you want to focus on the literal meaning of a comment made in the similar vein as many politicians make comments (i.e. short on detail and long on rhetoric) just to back up your hatrid of our politicians and against the UK interests (which mincludes your family that we always hear so much about), then carry on......

Unless you haven't realised, a trade deal is a load of blarney, boasts, egos and red lines on both sides and anything with the EU will always go down to the wire. The EU are no different in this - BUT, the big issue here is them going back on what they originally offered (not a done-deal deal, but an easy to adapt script that was already written) - yet you have never once showed any backing for the UKs very reasonable stance in this negotiation, just bashing every aspect of the UKs negotiations and siding with the EU

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year.

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.

 

[drdel]

Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year.

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.

"You" being who?

 

[SocketRocket]

Hey China we are going to threaten you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88
But not until early next year.

BTW don't those carriers need about six frigates to form a defensive barrier.
You know the ones that they cancelled the orders for.

What, these frigates.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-type-26-frigate-not-cancelled/

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

He had a basis for a relatively easy trade deal - if you want to focus on the literal meaning of a comment made in the similar vein as many politicians make comments (i.e. short on detail and long on rhetoric) just to back up your hatrid of our politicians and against the UK interests (which mincludes your family that we always hear so much about), then carry on......

Unless you haven't realised, a trade deal is a load of blarney, boasts, egos and red lines on both sides and anything with the EU will always go down to the wire. The EU are no different in this - BUT, the big issue here is them going back on what they originally offered (not a done-deal deal, but an easy to adapt script that was already written) - yet you have never once showed any backing for the UKs very reasonable stance in this negotiation, just bashing every aspect of the UKs negotiations and siding with the EU

I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever. I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable. That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected. But that was all Project Fear. Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk.

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”.

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow? Never mind. Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.

 

[Mudball]

I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever. I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable. That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected. But that was all Project Fear. Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk.

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”.

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow? Never mind. Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.

I thought Farage, Gove and BoJo all have said that the 350 was a statement rather than an accurate number.. so I am guessing this is 7b in new spend.

Spin it the other way... this 7b will create new jobs at the border, new infrastructure et al.. what’s not to like? They are already getting ready for new truck terminal in Kent (sad that the locals not want their houses near it, but that is a small price to pay for nation building)

 

[Hobbit]

I have no hatred of any individual whatsoever. I detest dishonesty, lying and deceits perpetrated by anyone of influence or in power that aim to mislead and confuse.

I have no doubt that we consider our stance reasonable. That that the EU might think otherwise is not unexpected. But that was all Project Fear. Leave voters were willing to take the risk - Remain voters were not willing to take the risk.

Meanwhile Barnier points out to Francois complaining about the EU DEMANDS in respect of the role of the CJEU, that he was one of many MPs who voted for the Political Declaration as part of the Withdrawal Agreement Ratification that Johnson agreed - the declaration that stated on any dispute over EU law, “the arbitration panel should refer the question to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”.

And the £7bn cost of Gove's new Brexit Border Plan - the £7bn that UKbusiness will have to swallow? Never mind. Some of the £350m a week that was to go to the NHS can help business out with that one.

Avoidance appears to your main tool when people point out there's two sides to this.

Do you agree with the EU have the same access to UK waters from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the ECJ been the arbitrator from Jan 21st?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of subsidies for UK industries?
Do you agree with the EU being in charge of quotas for trade agreements the UK might make with 3rd countries?
Do you agree with the EU's demand for a level playing field on standards?

Do you agree with the EU pulling the Canada-style deal they originally offered, stating that 'local' geography is the reason?

When will you ever, ever, ever side with the UK in this? Seriously Hugh, the battle to Remain is lost. Its now the battle for a good trade deal, and you never, ever side with the UK in this. Neither side will play fair, both sides wanting the best deal. When will you ever, ever support the govt in getting that good deal?

Still avoiding the questions I see. I will reply to everyone of your posts with these questions till you answer them, whichever of the threads you bring this up.

I think there was a Norwegian back in the 40's...............

 

[DanFST]

I'm glad we're leaving, If only that we've seen Hobbit unleashed.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm glad we're leaving, If only that we've seen Hobbit unleashed.

Fwee the Hobbit-one