Ball moved at address

[upsidedown]

In my match today our opponent was due to play his second shot into the 17th and from my position he had addressed the ball, but then he moved away and the ball rolled six inches down the slope . I gesticulated to my partner should he replace the ball or not but before he could answer our opponent had played his shot without replacing it ? He reckons he hadn't addressed it .

Loss of hole or one shot penalty?

 

[Colin L]

Whether or not he had addressed the ball is not relevant. He is no longer deemed to have moved the ball just because he had addressed it. The question is whether or not he caused his ball to move - which can't be answered from the information given.If it's not obvious (e.g. he kicked the ball). you have to check out factors which might mean that he did cause it to move - such as grounding his club near the ball, or standing on a loose impediment and the factors such as an outside agency or the wind which might have moved it. If it is more likely than not that the player
caused the ball to move, he is penalised 1 stroke in stroke play and matchplay and must replace the ball

Decision 18-2/0.5 goes into this much more detail. Well worth a read through.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-18,d18-2-0.5

 

[Foxholer]

...He reckons he hadn't addressed it ...

No longer relevant. Changed from 2016. From memory, a result of a 'daft' wind related penalty on either Brandt Snedeker or Webb Simpson (can't remember which!).

 

[upsidedown]

Thank you Colin and indeed a good read. From my perspective he had grounded his club and then immediately he withdrew and the ball moved. He says it looked like the ball was about to move so he withdrew. Ball had been cleaned and placed on the fairway on a slope of about 10 degrees. So I guess the question is, did he cause the movement by the action of grounding the club or not ?

 

[mikejohnchapman]

It's a difficult one in some ways which will be sorted out by the revisions in one sense.

If the ball moves under the current rule as has been stated then it's difficut to conclude the fault was not with the player. If the ball was still after it was placed (presumably under a winter local rule), and the wind was not blowing significantly, then what caused it to move? A reasonable conclusion would be the grounding of his club.

If has didn't replace the ball under penalty he played from the wrong place so actually a 2 shot penalty (or loss of hole).

 

[bladeplayer]

This type of one im normaly pretty stubborn on , if a ball is at rest for what ever length of time it takes a player to get there then moves as he/she is close to it , i seems to me unless there is another obvious reason, that it was his/her actions more than likely caused the ball to move ..

Am i too harsh on that ??

In this case how ever as it had been cleaned & placed after the player got there it could possibly have moved without the player causing it

 

[delc]

A couple of years ago I played in a 4BBB inter club match at West Herts Golf Club, which has some quite sloping and sometimes very slick greens. One of my opponents chipped about 10 feet past the hole, leaving a very tricky downhill putt. I was just about to take my putt from the fringe for a win, when his ball, which had been at rest for at least 40 seconds, started moving down the slope and went into the hole for a birdie. Nobody had gone anywhere near it, so what caused it to move? It was a calm day, so not the wind. A minor Earth tremor, or a worm moving underground perhaps? My putt for win became a putt for a half, and of course it missed. It was all downhill for our match after that, which had been pretty close up to that point.

The point is that had my opponent addressed or gone near his ball, he could have been accused of causing it to move without any other obvious reason to explain the movement, which could have been a miscarriage of justice!

 

[rulefan]

Perhaps 95% will make a difference in 2019

 

[mikejohnchapman]

A couple of years ago I played in a 4BBB inter club match at West Herts Golf Club, which has some quite sloping and sometimes very slick greens. One of my opponents chipped about 10 feet past the hole, leaving a very tricky downhill putt. I was just about to take my putt from the fringe for a win, when his ball, which had been at rest for at least 40 seconds, started moving down the slope and went into the hole for a birdie. Nobody had gone anywhere near it, so what caused it to move? It was a calm day, so not the wind. A minor Earth tremor, or a worm moving underground perhaps? My putt for win became a putt for a half, and of course it missed. It was all downhill for our match after that, which had been pretty close up to that point.

The point is that had my opponent addressed or gone near his ball, he could have been accused of causing it to move without any other obvious reason to explain the movement, which could have been a miscarriage of justice!

But this already covered by the local rule bought in in January.

If he had gone up to his ball on the green and it had moved he could replace it without penalty, If it moved when noone was anywhere near it then good / bad luck to him depending on which way it rolled - BAU

The original question related to a fairway where the prospects of a slick downhill lie are more remote.

 

[delc]

But this already covered by the local rule bought in in January.

If he had gone up to his ball on the green and it had moved he could replace it without penalty, If it moved when noone was anywhere near it then good / bad luck to him depending on which way it rolled - BAU

The original question related to a fairway where the prospects of a slick downhill lie are more remote.

The incident I reported occurred under the previous set of rules. I have seen balls move on sloping tightly cut fairways!

 

[upsidedown]

It's a difficult one in some ways which will be sorted out by the revisions in one sense.

If the ball moves under the current rule as has been stated then it's difficut to conclude the fault was not with the player. If the ball was still after it was placed (presumably under a winter local rule), and the wind was not blowing significantly, then what caused it to move? A reasonable conclusion would be the grounding of his club.

If has didn't replace the ball under penalty he played from the wrong place so actually a 2 shot penalty (or loss of hole).

It was an unfortunate event , I'm sure it was the grounding but he says not. We are friends and play together in County matches so not going to fall out over it but it did alter the result of our match and ultimately the overall result.

Hopefully the revision of the rules will make these scenarios less controversial .

 

[upsidedown]

Perhaps 95% will make a difference in 2019

95%?

 

[Colin L]

The proposed revision of the rule is that there has to be virtual certainty (over 95% likelihood) for the player to be considered to have caused the ball to move. That's a huge (and to me welcome) shift from the current criterion of more likely than not.

 

[upsidedown]

The proposed revision of the rule is that there has to be virtual certainty (over 95% likelihood) for the player to be considered to have caused the ball to move. That's a huge shift from the current criterion of more likely than not.

Cheers Colin :thup:

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The proposed revision of the rule is that there has to be virtual certainty (over 95% likelihood) for the player to be considered to have caused the ball to move. That's a huge (and to me welcome) shift from the current criterion of more likely than not.

I don't get this at all and instead of simplifying things it just makes them more complex.

What does 95% certainty mean? How is this different to 90% or 85%?

They are trying to make a science out of something that isn't.

Why they can't just say that if the ball moves by accident and the player is in the vercinity replace it without penalty and play on!

I for one will be arguing I was only 93% certain I moved the ball so no penalty!!!

 

[rulefan]

The proposed Rule simply says:

Standard for Deciding Whether Your Ball Moved.
 Your ball at rest will be found to have moved only if it is “known or virtually certain” that it did.
ï‚· If your ball might have moved but this is not known or virtually certain, you must play it as it lies.

This is consistently used throughout the rules for all doubtful situations.

However, the Definition is more comprehensive in saying:

Known or Virtually Certain

The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball moved, whether the player or some other person or thing caused it to move or whether it came to rest in a penalty area.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that the player knows or is almost sure that the event in question happened to his or her ball because either:

ï‚· There is conclusive evidence of it, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or

ï‚· Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that it happened.

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows or should know, or can get with reasonable efforts and without unreasonable delay.

 

[shagster]

How do you know his supposed grounding of his club caused his ball to move and not activity beneath the surface i.e. Worm or insect lava. It's spring and these activities are beginning to happen?

 

[upsidedown]

How do you know his supposed grounding of his club caused his ball to move and not activity beneath the surface i.e. Worm or insect lava. It's spring and these activities are beginning to happen?

Indeed could have been but unlikely as we were at 600FT plus above sea level and it was cold . Indeed when was the last time you saw such an occurrence occur ?