Ashes 4th Test

[richart]

Did we win ? I thought the experts on here said we had no chance. I assume we only won because the Aussies were absolutely useless, rather than we played well.

Oh by the way, Root is the top ranked batsmen in the world, and Broad and Anderson are ranked two and three in the bowling rankings.:thup:

 

[Dan2501]

His comments are all over the BBC feed as opposed to following him on twitter

Thought you would be right behind - his views in regards England before the Aussies and NZ arrived mirrored yours.

Just ignore them.

Yeah, they were, but unlike Morgan I am capable of changing my opinion as I see improvement, and I'm not blinded by opinions I held previously. Before this summer we weren't good enough. We should have hammered the West Indies, but we were absolutely awful in that series. The turning point was binning Moores, and giving the guys the freedom to express themselves without fear of being dropped. The team still isn't perfect by any means, but they look a heck of a lot stronger now than they did before the first ball of the summer was bowled. They've improved a lot, and the key players, Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson stood up and performed when it counted.

 

[Tongo]

Just ignore them.

Yeah, they were, but unlike Morgan I am capable of changing my opinion as I see improvement, and I'm not blinded by opinions I held previously. Before this summer we weren't good enough. We should have hammered the West Indies, but we were absolutely awful in that series. The turning point was binning Moores, and giving the guys the freedom to express themselves without fear of being dropped. The team still isn't perfect by any means, but they look a heck of a lot stronger now than they did before the first ball of the summer was bowled. They've improved a lot, and the key players, Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson stood up and performed when it counted.

England are also playing with a smile on their faces and a more attacking style of cricket rather than the turgid borefest that had been used over the last couple of years. Not surprisingly the feelgood factor has returned as people are excited and being entertained by a style that isnt dominated by looking at the laptop. As you say, the team is by no means perfect or a set of world beaters but they are a vast improvement.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Did we win ? I thought the experts on here said we had no chance. I assume we only won because the Aussies were absolutely useless, rather than we played well.

Oh by the way, Root is the top ranked batsmen in the world, and Broad and Anderson are ranked two and three in the bowling rankings.:thup:

Always had a very strong feeling that a number of people would have to eat words and be very surprised. Glad Root is a number 1 - clearly a step above everyone at the moment.

Stokes will have shut a few up now , as will Cook , Broad and Bell on his way back. Hopefully Lyth gets another series to gain momentum. Find a quality spinner and it will be a dangerous England side

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just ignore them.

Yeah, they were, but unlike Morgan I am capable of changing my opinion as I see improvement, and I'm not blinded by opinions I held previously. Before this summer we weren't good enough. We should have hammered the West Indies, but we were absolutely awful in that series. The turning point was binning Moores, and giving the guys the freedom to express themselves without fear of being dropped. The team still isn't perfect by any means, but they look a heck of a lot stronger now than they did before the first ball of the summer was bowled. They've improved a lot, and the key players, Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson stood up and performed when it counted.

Englands test team was never as bad as some portrayed on here and i said it then - people got carried away with the poor WC performances and the attacks towards them were coming from all over the place - even oppo captains were saying it. Moores may not of been the perfect coach but both Cook and Bayliss gave him the credit he deserves.

 

[Dan2501]

Moores was a defensive, stats-based coach that has never been good enough for International cricket. I'm sure he's a great bloke, but he's not the right man for English cricket. Was the wrong choice the first time, and again the second. The improvement since his departure has been astounding.

The team is definitely not perfect. Going down the order:

Cook - Excellent so far. Inventive captaincy, performed with the bat, been a proper leader
Lyth - Still looks massively out of his depth with a clear technical issue. I'm not convinced he's good enough
Bell - A class player that should be persisted with for now, but not exactly scoring heaps of runs
Root - Exceptional. Best batsman in the world, and playing with such freedom. Completely different player to the one he was 18 months ago. Superb.
Bairstow - Technique still not perfect, but he's scored heaps of runs this season and deserves his spot, has definitely improved
Stokes - A talisman. Isn't always going to perform, but will chip in and stand-up when needed. Again, much improved from 18 months ago.
Buttler - Not convincing with the bat at all. Doesn't seem to have a gameplan in red-ball cricket. Desperately needs a score in Test matches. Immensely talented, but has never been amazing in the longer form
Moeen - Serviceable. Good option as a number 8, but has been very average with the ball in his hand.
Broad - Superb. Deserved way more wickets than he's got this series, and the 8-fer was one of the best spells I've seen.
Wood - Good, solid bowler but could have issues playing in back-to-back Tests and series
Anderson - It's Jimmeh. One of the best bowlers England have ever had. Hope he's not injured for long.
Finn - Great to see him back bowling with confidence. Going to have dodgy spells, but he's a wicket-taker.

 

[Tongo]

Englands test team was never as bad as some portrayed on here and i said it then - people got carried away with the poor WC performances and the attacks towards them were coming from all over the place - even oppo captains were saying it. Moores may not of been the perfect coach but both Cook and Bayliss gave him the credit he deserves.

Was it any surprise after the woeful performance in the Caribbean?

And as for Cook and Bayliss, well they're hardly going to slag Moores off are they? Especially just after they've regained the Ashes.

 

[Dan2501]

The performance in the West Indies was a disgrace. They're one of the worst sides in the world, and we should never have lost a Test against them, especially when you consider they didn't field a full-strength team. The criticism after that series was deserved.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Was it any surprise after the woeful performance in the Caribbean?

And as for Cook and Bayliss, well they're hardly going to slag Moores off are they? Especially just after they've regained the Ashes.

And again a lot of the Caribbean performaces came of the back of players feeling very low after a poor World Cup - but even in the series the signs were there.

Cook and Bayliss didnt have to mention Moores one single bit but both singled him out - who knows maybe his stats went a long way to helping Bayliss and the current coaches - maybe the stats were a perfect tool but just needed the right application.

But it was clear that the doom and gloom on here was all about 2 nil whitewash against NZ and a proper thrashing followed by and another 5 nil whitewash from the Aussies. Even when we won tests it was down to oppo not playing well - after Lords the dooms came out again. It was exactly how we see the media react - win = world beaters , lose = worst in the world.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The performance in the West Indies was a disgrace. They're one of the worst sides in the world, and we should never have lost a Test against them, especially when you consider they didn't field a full-strength team. The criticism after that series was deserved.

It wasnt a "disgrace" - it was a poor last test after a decent and a good test and we still didnt lose the series - at a place where England indeed many teams dont win regulary.

 

[Tongo]

It wasnt a "disgrace" - it was a poor last test after a decent and a good test and we still didnt lose the series - at a place where England indeed many teams dont win regulary.

And yet 2 months later this Australian team that has been well beaten went to the Caribbean and won by 9 wickets and by 277 runs.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

And yet 2 months later this Australian team that has been well beaten went to the Caribbean and won by 9 wickets and by 277 runs.

The same Australian Team riding on the crest of a wave after a great World Cup - getting on a run and confidence is a massive plus

Sometimes you see more by looking past just the results and the situation. This Ashes has clearly shown that far too many were far too quick to write off England

 

[Tongo]

The same Australian Team riding on the crest of a wave after a great World Cup - getting on a run and confidence is a massive plus

Sometimes you see more by looking past just the results and the situation. This Ashes has clearly shown that far too many were far too quick to write off England

Yes, which had England done they may well have had a better World Cup as they would have realised that Cook was not up to it as ODI captain or and ODI player, despite a decent win %, neither was Bell and Stokes should have been persisted with rather than binned after two matches in SL. Unfortunately the laptop and the data told them otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, which had England done they may well have had a better World Cup as they would have realised that Cook was not up to it as ODI captain or and ODI player, despite a decent win %, neither was Bell and Stokes should have been persisted with rather than binned after two matches in SL. Unfortunately the laptop and the data told them otherwise.

And none of that changes the fact that people gave England no chance this summer and they have rammed those words down peoples throats

Stokes was written off by people on here as well , same with Bell , Cook , Broad even Anderson.

 

[Dan2501]

Was fair enough to write Stokes off. Before this summer, and one innings against Australia with bat and ball he'd done precisely nothing in an England shirt, admitted as much himself today. He's stepped up and been magnificent this summer, but had every right to doubt him after his awful run last summer.

Now we've won the series, do we give Lyth one more go? One final chance to prove himself? Or do you throw someone like a Hales in to give him a chance?

Also, what are everyones thoughts on Buttler? Obviously an exceptional one day player, possibly the best we've ever had, but doesn't always guarantee Test success, look at Eoin Morgan for example. His glovework is okay, but his batting has been poor. Seems to struggle to pace an innings, and seems conflicted as to whether to attack or defend. Do we give the gloves to someone like Bairstow and bring a James Taylor in for example? Or stick with Buttler and hope he makes use of his obvious talents?

I'm conflicted on both. I would probably stick with Lyth for one more Test, and stick with Buttler for now, but Jos definitely needs to improve with bat in hand.

 

[Tongo]

Was fair enough to write Stokes off. Before this summer, and one innings against Australia with bat and ball he'd done precisely nothing in an England shirt, admitted as much himself today. He's stepped up and been magnificent this summer, but had every right to doubt him after his awful run last summer.

Now we've won the series, do we give Lyth one more go? One final chance to prove himself? Or do you throw someone like a Hales in to give him a chance?

Also, what are everyones thoughts on Buttler? Obviously an exceptional one day player, possibly the best we've ever had, but doesn't always guarantee Test success, look at Eoin Morgan for example. His glovework is okay, but his batting has been poor. Seems to struggle to pace an innings, and seems conflicted as to whether to attack or defend. Do we give the gloves to someone like Bairstow and bring a James Taylor in for example? Or stick with Buttler and hope he makes use of his obvious talents?

I'm conflicted on both. I would probably stick with Lyth for one more Test, and stick with Buttler for now, but Jos definitely needs to improve with bat in hand.

I wouldnt change either. Lyth should be given a decent run in the side. England have tried a number of other options and none of them have worked whilst Hales has tailed off in CC cricket after a stunning start to the summer. As for Buttler, i would rather someone sat down with him and he was persisted with rather than just ditched. The replacements arent plentiful. Bairstow's the obvious choice but is his keeping up to test match cricket?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Was fair enough to write Stokes off. Before this summer, and one innings against Australia with bat and ball he'd done precisely nothing in an England shirt, admitted as much himself today. He's stepped up and been magnificent this summer, but had every right to doubt him after his awful run last summer.

it wasnt fair enough to write Stokes off - he showed in the hardest of arena the ability to perform with both bat and ball - then had a dip and an injury but writing him off is typical these days - people dont allow players the chance. Stokes was always a quality player whose ability was going to shine through.Yes question players but dont write them off until they have been given a proper chance

Now we've won the series, do we give Lyth one more go? One final chance to prove himself? Or do you throw someone like a Hales in to give him a chance?

He has had 7 test matches and got himself a ton a few other mid40's - he needs more time - we cant keep giving the openers a series or two then swapping - Hales hasnt done anything in the longer form of the game yet

Also, what are everyones thoughts on Buttler? Obviously an exceptional one day player, possibly the best we've ever had, but doesn't always guarantee Test success, look at Eoin Morgan for example. His glovework is okay, but his batting has been poor. Seems to struggle to pace an innings, and seems conflicted as to whether to attack or defend. Do we give the gloves to someone like Bairstow and bring a James Taylor in for example? Or stick with Buttler and hope he makes use of his obvious talents?

I'm conflicted on both. I would probably stick with Lyth for one more Test, and stick with Buttler for now, but Jos definitely needs to improve with bat in hand.

Of course we stick with Buttler - his keeping just gets better and better and his batting is not an issue just yet - he needs a few tweeks in regards shot selection but is the most talented keeper we have and will just get stronger - he has only played 12 tests - average of just under 40 so far with 4 or 5 50's.

In the West Indies he was left stranded 3 times i think it was . Against New Zealand he made a good 60 plus in the first innings and then was top scorer in the second test.

Its always a tough start for a wicket keeper because they need to get two crucial parts right - he is still developing and every confidence that he will be number 1 for a number of years yet.

 

[Dan2501]

I agree re: Buttler. He's so talented, just needs to find his way and his method. My advice would be to play his natural game. He doesn't have the defensive technique to become a blocker, so giving it a whack would be the best way for him I feel. As for Bairstow, his keeping is probably on a par with Buttler's when he first came into the side. Buttler has become a better glovesman, but there's no much seperating them, and would probably do Bairstow some good to just focus on his batting TBH. Buttler definitely one that needs to improve if we're going to be successful across the world though, has clear technical issues with the bat that need addressing if he's going to succeed in England, NZ, South Africa and Australia in seaming/swinging conditions.

 

[Tongo]

it wasnt fair enough to write Stokes off - he showed in the hardest of arena the ability to perform with both bat and ball - then had a dip and an injury but writing him off is typical these days - people dont allow players the chance. Stokes was always a quality player whose ability was going to shine through.Yes question players but dont write them off until they have been given a proper chance


He has had 7 test matches and got himself a ton a few other mid40's - he needs more time - we cant keep giving the openers a series or two then swapping - Hales hasnt done anything in the longer form of the game yet

Of course we stick with Buttler - his keeping just gets better and better and his batting is not an issue just yet - he needs a few tweeks in regards shot selection but is the most talented keeper we have and will just get stronger - he has only played 12 tests - average of just under 40 so far with 4 or 5 50's.

In the West Indies he was left stranded 3 times i think it was . Against New Zealand he made a good 60 plus in the first innings and then was top scorer in the second test.

Its always a tough start for a wicket keeper because they need to get two crucial parts right - he is still developing and every confidence that he will be number 1 for a number of years yet.

I always feel Stokes gets unfairly judged for the same reason. If he doesnt perform with both bat and ball it seems that people are questioning his place. Which seems harsh.

 

[Dan2501]

Stokes has proven himself this year, but was dismal last year. Couldn't buy a run, and wasn't penetrative enough with the ball. He's improved though, and I'm pleased for him.

it wasnt fair enough to write Stokes off - he showed in the hardest of arena the ability to perform with both bat and ball - then had a dip and an injury but writing him off is typical these days - people dont allow players the chance. Stokes was always a quality player whose ability was going to shine through.Yes question players but dont write them off until they have been given a proper chance

43 runs in 12 innings, 6 ducks, avg 3.6. Think it was fair enough to write him off last year.