JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Assuming everything works out OK you'll pop it in the hole every time Bob, and whilst you're at it... why not just aim more left and slice it in there!
any drills for a fade
- Thread starter The19thHole
- Start date
Assuming everything works out OK you'll pop it in the hole every time Bob, and whilst you're at it... why not just aim more left and slice it in there!
Tommo21
Tour Winner
Some good stuff, but I think some of you need to go out and just hit the ball and find a natural flight and work with that. Never been any good at shaping the ball and there's only the odd time I even try it.
The only true shapers I know are, ex pro who plays off 1 and the current Royal Musselburgh club champion who plays off 0. You need to have real talent to do this without costing you shots. If you're a high HC player then I would try to hit the ball more consistant rather than try to shape it. Just my opinion.
The only true shapers I know are, ex pro who plays off 1 and the current Royal Musselburgh club champion who plays off 0. You need to have real talent to do this without costing you shots. If you're a high HC player then I would try to hit the ball more consistant rather than try to shape it. Just my opinion.
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
Justone Is there any chance we are at cross purposes as I am assuminag a downwad strike and when talking about path I am referring to the resultant path of the swing and the down and out. The implication of this is that the resultant path would be right of the toe line (if you feet are square with where you are aiming).
It may help understanding if I try to seperate the down from path.
So swing in-to-square-to-in, that path is square to the toe line. But as hitting down the resultant path is in-to-out relative to the toe line. For what I refer to as a draw you need the cluface open to the target and closed to the resultant path (not the path that is square to the toe line which is to the left of this resultant path) at about a 50% ratio. So if the effect of the down on this swing was 3 degrees you'd need the face open to the resultant path open 1.5 degrees. In this case this 1.5 degrees would be open to the toe line (but closed to the reslutant path line) giving me my draw and you your push draw.
It may help understanding if I try to seperate the down from path.
So swing in-to-square-to-in, that path is square to the toe line. But as hitting down the resultant path is in-to-out relative to the toe line. For what I refer to as a draw you need the cluface open to the target and closed to the resultant path (not the path that is square to the toe line which is to the left of this resultant path) at about a 50% ratio. So if the effect of the down on this swing was 3 degrees you'd need the face open to the resultant path open 1.5 degrees. In this case this 1.5 degrees would be open to the toe line (but closed to the reslutant path line) giving me my draw and you your push draw.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Yep, I do understand impact, ballflight laws and d-plane thanks, although I don't know how that relates to our guy that is playing a push-fade as myself and Bobmac suggest.
SO, let me ask you a question...... if you set up perfectly square to a target line, feet, hips, shoulders etc all square, the clubface square too..... every little piece square..... then roll the clubface closed 10° so it is now pointing left of the target line.... forget the flag now for a moment...would you EVER recommend that someone try to hit a ball like that?
Here's a picture of what I mean if it helps... (the clubface is lined up withthe thin red line 10° closed)
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SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
I though the push fade had been sorted out earlier and the thread had morphed, apologies to the op if he's upset.
I'm not sure what you mean by rolled the cubface closed. Do you mean close it and then grip it, or just roll it in which case it'll probably come back close to square. You'd also ned to bear in mind that just because it's closed at address it doesn't mean it'll come back into impact that way and it's impact that matters, for someone who routinely leaves the face option at impact (when not wanting it) so doing something that helps them close may help them, it might not be the best nor the only way, but it'd be an option.
If the a target line is not referring to where you want to end up itself maybe, since all shots have their uses.
So what am I doing, I'm setting up square, hitting down on the ball with a very closed clubface. Sounds a bit like a Texas chilli dipper could be useful for hitting a low hook of the toe from rough that I need it to skip through and move the ball right to left around under an obstacle.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
It would actually be going left and more left... but we can call it right to left if it helps....
So it's a low hook or a chilli dipper. I kind of agree that setting up square and having the face closed is going to end up pretty ugly....
So let's take a guy who hits a small draw like you do, he has a downward angle of 3° the face is 1.5° open and the ball starts a little right of target and then (for arguments sake) draws back to it or land a couple of yards left of it, again for arguments sake lets say the path is 4° in-to-out, who cares? It's a pretty straight shot all being told. So lets call it that... he's pretty close.
So lets take a look at that straightish shot.... it's going to look pretty simple like this...all square to the target line and the ball will pretty much go straight at the target...
Now this guy is going to need to hit a draw so as you describe on post No #15 he aim right.... he will now look like this.... (I've just rotated the first image 10° and drawn a thin line to represent where the target now is, so he is now aimed right)
Now as he hits a pretty straight ball so when he hits this one it will go off to the right of the target (agreed?) as that's where he is now aiming. Nothing has changed apart from the aim so he now stands no chance of hitting the targetwith his straight(ish) shot.
So what does he do? What are we told to do? Well he has to close the face to the path to get it to start closer to the target and so that it draws.... so he closes the face and points it more-or-less at the target, we could say that it's a couple of degrees right if you wish.... it now looks something like this.... I've added the new clubface position in green)....
So now he's good to go... agreed? all good so far?
OK so let's take a look at that shot... let's tip our heads to the side and see what he's actually face with.... to make it easier for you I'll just rotate it back the 10° without changing it....
So this is what he's currently lookng down at, the blue original clubface and the new green clubface.... let's just clean that up and get rid of the original clubface...............
And what are we left with? ...your original 'low hook or chilli dipper' isn't it?
(It must be because it's the same picture I uploaded in the first place).
And therein lies the problem of aligning to the right to hit a draw, the clubface is exceptionally closed and it's threatening a chilli dipper. Now perhaps you could argue that it's acceptable to do that? but you still have to remember that in this example we took a good player like yourself as the initial standard who hits a pretty good shot to start with, and it turns out to be a 'chilli dipper'... what if we start with a guy who slices?... or someone who plays a push-fade? Believe me ...it gets WORSE.
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chrisd
Major Champion
It would actually be going left and more left... but we can call it right to left if it helps....
So it's a low hook or a chilli dipper. I kind of agree that setting up square and having the face closed is going to end up pretty ugly....
So let's take a guy who hits a small draw like you do, he has a downward angle of 3° the face is 1.5° open and the ball starts a little right of target and then (for arguments sake) draws back to it or land a couple of yards left of it, again for arguments sake lets say the path is 4° in-to-out, who cares? It's a pretty straight shot all being told. So lets call it that... he's pretty close.
So lets take a look at that straightish shot.... it's going to look pretty simple like this...all square to the target line and the ball will pretty much go straight at the target...
View attachment 510
Now this guy is going to need to hit a draw so as you describe on post No #15 he aim right.... he will now look like this.... (I've just rotated the first image 10° and drawn a thin line to represent where the target now is, so he is now aimed right)
View attachment 511
Now as he hits a pretty straight ball so when he hits this one it will go off to the right of the target (agreed?) as that's where he is now aiming. Nothing has changed apart from the aim so he now stands no chance of hitting the targetwith his straight(ish) shot.
So what does he do? What are we told to do? Well he has to close the face to the path to get it to start closer to the target and so that it draws.... so he closes the face and points it more-or-less at the target, we could say that it's a couple of degrees right if you wish.... it now looks something like this.... I've added the new clubface position in green)....
View attachment 512
So now he's good to go... agreed? all good so far?
OK so let's take a look at that shot... let's tip our heads to the side and see what he's actually face with.... to make it easier for you I'll just rotate it back the 10° without changing it....
View attachment 513
So this is what he's currently lookng down at, the blue original clubface and the new green clubface.... let's just clean that up and get rid of the original clubface...............
View attachment 514
And what are we left with? ...your original 'low hook or chilli dipper' isn't it?
(It must be because it's the same picture I uploaded in the first place).
And therein lies the problem of aligning to the right to hit a draw, the clubface is exceptionally closed and it's threatening a chilli dipper. Now perhaps you could argue that it's acceptable to do that? but you still have to remember that in this example we took a good player like yourself as the initial standard who hits a pretty good shot to start with, and it turns out to be a 'chilli dipper'... what if we start with a guy who slices?... or someone who plays a push-fade? Believe me ...it gets WORSE.
Such a simple game golf innit!
Chris
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
It's the difference between 'feel' and 'real' Chris.
What actually happens is the player aims to the right and closes the clubface but they KNOW somehow that it doesn't look correct... so they move the ball forwards. This means that the path is now MORE shallow. If the path is more shallow you'll get less draw spin so you won't hook it but you've also moved the ball IN FRONT of the low point of the swing (eg: in front of the divot!!!) so now you're faced with fatting it... so what do you do? Well you make another adjustment, probably with your weightshift...which will have to somehow have to stay further back... and then you leave the face open...and then you're blocking/slicing you name it, it's all over the shop.... it's actually what 90% of all club golfers do off the tee when faced with a driver that is forward in their stance, 90% line up too far right! Just ask Smiffy!
So someone wants tohit a draw so you're now faced with telling them.. ok, aim to the right, close the face, move the ball forwards to shallow the path, keep your weight to the right to avoid fatting it, not too much that you thin it, don't hit it too late or the path will be coming back to the inside (out-to-in), don't forget to make a complete shoulder turn.. it goes on, you could add roll your wrists in there too.... Not as easy as it originally seemed huh? That's 'feel and real' for you.
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bobmac
Major Champion
Meanwhile, matey who has paid £20 for his half hour lesson has lost the plot, left the range and buggered off home, never to call again. :ears:
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
^
^
^
You should know,,.. you've been teaching the 'draw from a closed stance' for a decade
hehe
To push-draw the ball, line up square, open the face 2°, hit the ball from the inside. Simples
Not drawing? Hit it more from the inside.
^
^
You should know,,.. you've been teaching the 'draw from a closed stance' for a decade
hehe
To push-draw the ball, line up square, open the face 2°, hit the ball from the inside. Simples
Not drawing? Hit it more from the inside.
bobmac
Major Champion
Perfect.
Absolutely right
Easy peasy.
In theory.
I'm off for my 2'oclock, Hope she can swing it in to out
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
You're the instructor Bob... why not teach her?
StrangelyBrown
Tour Winner
There's your (my) problem
It's not as simple as just telling yourself to hit it more from the inside. If it was that easy then every golfer on the planet would be hitting a push draw.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
There's your (my) problem
It's not as simple as just telling yourself to hit it more from the inside. If it was that easy then every golfer on the planet would be hitting a push draw.
99.9% of professional golfers swing from the inside, probably 98% of all golfers regardless of ability CAN swing from the inside, it's only those who don't know how or why that don't. Push-draw and push-fade are both hit from the inside hence the 'push'. It's really not rocket science, the club goes behind you as the shoulders turn.. that IS from the inside
It's only manipulating it (or in some circumstances a physical issue) that stops you doing it,...and choice of course.
StrangelyBrown
Tour Winner
I appreciate that we probably all have the ability to swing from the inside, but if it was that easy then we all would.
Anyway, I think we've gone way off topic, so apologies to the OP.
Anyway, I think we've gone way off topic, so apologies to the OP.
The19thHole
Head Pro
anybody run this by me again? :rofl:
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
LOLOL.... see post#4
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
It would actually be going left and more left... but we can call it right to left if it helps....
So it's a low hook or a chilli dipper. I kind of agree that setting up square and having the face closed is going to end up pretty ugly....
So let's take a guy who hits a small draw like you do, he has a downward angle of 3° the face is 1.5° open and the ball starts a little right of target and then (for arguments sake) draws back to it or land a couple of yards left of it, again for arguments sake lets say the path is 4° in-to-out, who cares? It's a pretty straight shot all being told. So lets call it that... he's pretty close.
So lets take a look at that straightish shot.... it's going to look pretty simple like this...all square to the target line and the ball will pretty much go straight at the target...
View attachment 510
Now this guy is going to need to hit a draw so as you describe on post No #15 he aim right.... he will now look like this.... (I've just rotated the first image 10° and drawn a thin line to represent where the target now is, so he is now aimed right)
View attachment 511
Now as he hits a pretty straight ball so when he hits this one it will go off to the right of the target (agreed?) as that's where he is now aiming. Nothing has changed apart from the aim so he now stands no chance of hitting the targetwith his straight(ish) shot.
So what does he do? What are we told to do? Well he has to close the face to the path to get it to start closer to the target and so that it draws.... so he closes the face and points it more-or-less at the target, we could say that it's a couple of degrees right if you wish.... it now looks something like this.... I've added the new clubface position in green)....
View attachment 512
So now he's good to go... agreed? all good so far?
OK so let's take a look at that shot... let's tip our heads to the side and see what he's actually face with.... to make it easier for you I'll just rotate it back the 10° without changing it....
View attachment 513
So this is what he's currently lookng down at, the blue original clubface and the new green clubface.... let's just clean that up and get rid of the original clubface...............
View attachment 514
And what are we left with? ...your original 'low hook or chilli dipper' isn't it?
(It must be because it's the same picture I uploaded in the first place).
And therein lies the problem of aligning to the right to hit a draw, the clubface is exceptionally closed and it's threatening a chilli dipper. Now perhaps you could argue that it's acceptable to do that? but you still have to remember that in this example we took a good player like yourself as the initial standard who hits a pretty good shot to start with, and it turns out to be a 'chilli dipper'... what if we start with a guy who slices?... or someone who plays a push-fade? Believe me ...it gets WORSE.
Last one, well for me anyway
I didn't write it goes to the right and then to the left, I wrote the ball moves right to left i.e. it curves in the right to left direction.
Texas chilli dipper is a short game shot shot described in Pelz's short game bible and the execessive 10 degree angle to a square path reminded me of it. It's a shot designed to run through rough and curve it right to left (note I didn't say go right then curve left). For a full shot I agree you'd be talking about a low hook about 40 yards left for a 200 yard shot.
I find the 10 degree example strange, since according Tuxin virtually no-one has a discrepancy between face of path of 10 degrees or more (unless they are wanting it). So a 10 degree error for a straight shot (assumption that they want a straight shot) of purely face is not a shot golfers hit.
I don't see anyone chosing to hit what your describe as a pull draw as having to have a clubface exceptionally closed nor do I see a lot of the problems you've listed as things that have to happen in the swing as a consequene of a set up change where from your straight shot position a golfer rotates right a little and closes the face a touch. I see that as one way (and not the only way) a golfer can start the ball right of target and curve the ball right to left and finish on target. Set up changes are probably simpler to alter than in-swing changes. The best way for one person may not the best way for another, nor may it always be the best way for that golfer as situations change and golfers practice and improve.
I was trying in my post to suggest that we may have had an misunderstanding with definitions since I was on about path aim and that included the downward.
I still have an issue with referencing shots to the toe line, are you sure it's not target line? I've not been able to find online any definitive defintions or push draw, pull draw pull hook etc or even a complete list of all terms used):
This might explain why i have an issue with it (for all who may read the post): For a straight shot with a centred hit and a downward strike. Here because the angle of attack is down the true path is out. Therfeore you need to align the swing left to get that to square with the clubface. If you do this by aligning yourself left, you hit a shot straight at the target. I call it straight (it started on line and finished on line), but what does someone call it who reference's it to toe line? How do you hit your straight shot with feet parallel?
We seem to have different philosophies on how to go about things. I see golf as a target game and all shots as having possible use. I don't see just one correct way of playing it, I see different ways of getting the ball there. I see an individual as having a best way for them to play a shot and not just one best way for all.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
You don't (as you know). Funny that we're all being told to line up square though isn't it?
Are we really meant to impact the ball at 0° downward angle?..no divot?
Make no mistake, I know you understand what you are talking about, somewhere it's getting lost in translation as you say. The 10° was purely an example which shows to an extent how 'futile' it is to try hitting a shot whilst closed to the target.... to me 'closed to the target' is exactly the same as being told to line up square for a straight shot - wrong, it's just that you feel differently about it. I don't think we have different philosophies at all, I'm simply trying to show that the difference between 'feel' and 'real' is important. I'd like to be able to persuade (convince/prove) you otherwise so that you can help others, but it's really not the end of the world...well not until sometime in December apparently
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