AND HERE WE GO - THE 2019 GENERAL ELECTION THREAD

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patricks148 said:
you hav'nt reduced the def, we owe more now than when the tory's took over, yes you have created lots of low paying 0 hours contact jobs and fiddleled the Unemployment figures.
oh and you forgot Tax cuts to the rich, ecomomic uncertancy to placate right wing of the tory part and hundreds of thousand having to us food banks and in poverty... i could go on...
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While it might be true that SR hasn't reduced the deficit personally, the Conservatives have reduced the deficit from £103 billion in 2010 to £1.9 billion at the end of 2018. At the end of March 2019 the budget deficit was a surplus of £19 billion so you are incorrect. We do owe more now than when the Tories took over (£1.8 trillion compared to £1 trillion in 2010) but it is absolutely untrue that the deficit hasn't been reduced.

EDIT - source for the figures.....

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_deficit_analysis
 
Leaders debate from Sheffield was interesting.
It went off in a completely different direction than I had envisaged.

Johnson and Get Brexit Done seemed to have very little support from the audience.
Nicola got a fair hearing and quite a decent bit of applause.
Swinson was as bad as Johnson.
Corbyn seemed to have quite a bit of support.

ps Audience were brilliant...…..stars of the show.
Bruce was OK, she checked Johnson blustering about nothing. He seems clueless outside of his controlled London bubble.
 
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Doon frae Troon said:
Leaders debate from Sheffield was interesting.
It went off in a completely different direction than I had envisaged.

Johnson and Get Brexit Done seemed to have very little support from the audience.
Nicola got a fair hearing and quite a decent bit of applause.
Swinson was as bad as Johnson.
Corbyn seemed to have quite a bit of support.
Click to expand...

Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
 
Beezerk said:
Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
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Should have stuck with it, he started well but started too unwind after the Brexit questions and the Scottish surge. Did he mean he would remain neutral or the Labour Party would be neutral in any build up to a 2nd ref.
Didn't listen to the SNP as I had the excuse of having to prepare tea.
Swinson took a bit of a battering especially from those who said they were LibDems.
Johnson done better than I thought he would but never going to be great as he has the inability to listen.
Bruce managed this better than she does QT.
 
pauldj42 said:
For balance:
Over the same period:
1000% increase in foodbank use.
Rough Sleeping increased by 165%
Homelessness increased by 41%
NHS waiting lists increased by 65%
Police numbers down by 17%
Crime recorded in England and Wales increased by 37%
Local Government funding down by 56%
I could go on.
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Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves. I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many. I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it. Some people also have mental health issues and it can be very difficult to get them to change the way they live. There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities. Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough? Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing. Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened. The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment. One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases. Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen, its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up. All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything. There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Government policy or are there more complex reasons. I suspect there are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them. The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.
 
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SocketRocket said:
Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves. I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many. I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it. Some people also have mental health issues and it can be very difficult to get them to change the way they live. There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities. Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough? Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing. Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened. The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment. One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases. Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen, its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up. All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything. There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Gover ment policy or are there more complex reasons. I suspect thete are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them. The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.
Click to expand...
Who’s reality? The one above were you don’t accept the facts.
By all means praise the positive, but take the blinkers off when there’s negatives.
 
SocketRocket said:
Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves. I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many. I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it. Some people also have mental health issues and it can be very difficult to get them to change the way they live. There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities. Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough? Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing. Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened. The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment. One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases. Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen, its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up. All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything. There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Government policy or are there more complex reasons. I suspect there are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them. The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.
Click to expand...

Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a £19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?
 
Hobbit said:
Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a £19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?
Click to expand...


Because the debt had been built up and the interest was crippling plus the Bank lending worldwide....

The cost of overspending had to be paid.
 
Beezerk said:
Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
Click to expand...

Watched all of it.

Corbyn; still think he's a great orator and could, probably, sell sand to the Arabs. Some minor deflections but nothing you could really say were game changers. Performance 8/10

Sturgeon; spent too much time denigrating the opposition. Not as much substance as she usually gives. Probably one of her worst performances. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?

Swinson; oh dear. Not great at all. Lots of nothing. Came across as floundering in water too deep for her. Is it inexperience, or is she just poor. Performance 3/10

Johnson; came on to a mixed reception, and certainly got some brick bats throughout. Still not good at so obviously avoiding difficult questions. Left to better applause. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?
 
Hobbit said:
Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a £19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?
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Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues. He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel. I heard just after he had killed himself. Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could have been tapered off a bit earlier but some people are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.
 
Hobbit said:
Watched all of it.

Corbyn; still think he's a great orator and could, probably, sell sand to the Arabs. Some minor deflections but nothing you could really say were game changers. Performance 8/10

Sturgeon; spent too much time denigrating the opposition. Not as much substance as she usually gives. Probably one of her worst performances. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?

Swinson; oh dear. Not great at all. Lots of nothing. Came across as floundering in water too deep for her. Is it inexperience, or is she just poor. Performance 3/10

Johnson; came on to a mixed reception, and certainly got some brick bats throughout. Still not good at so obviously avoiding difficult questions. Left to better applause. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?
Click to expand...

looks like the after show was better

https://twitter.com/x/status/1197994730933673984
 
SocketRocket said:
Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues. He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel. I heard just after he had killed himself. Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could jave been tapered off a bit earlier but some. People are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.
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I’m confused in that you say they are complex issues, which I agree with, and state people are suggesting austerity was completely unnecessary, not on here they haven’t.

Yet in post #1672 you are putting all the responsibility on Gordon Brown’s over borrowing, even though it was the 2008 global recession that affected everyone and something had to be done.
 
SocketRocket said:
Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues. He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel. I heard just after he had killed himself. Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could have been tapered off a bit earlier but some people are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.
Click to expand...

We'd be splitting hairs but, in some cases, those hairs are more to do with the lack of detail either of us posted and the fact we're not experts in those areas.

Food banks; there's some very interesting stats on when they started, how many and the growth thereof. I'd argue that the, well not so much argue as more point to the fact that the numbers in the UK have risen quicker and higher than any other western country, and have risen under a Tory govt. Even (rich) Germany has them in the hundreds.

Homelessness; I did say the increase was because of... There will, as you say, always be a core of rough sleepers who's issues have little to do with the state of the economy.
 
SocketRocket said:
Its also easy for me to ask you to take the blinkers off. Poor way to debate though.
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My blinkers are well and truly off, in all honesty I found your comments insulting, especially your attitude towards foodbanks and the homeless, so the long insulting rant for which I’d of received a ban, I deleted and thankfully Hobbit answered it far better than I ever could.
 
pauldj42 said:
I’m confused in that you say they are complex issues, which I agree with, and state people are suggesting austerity was completely unnecessary, not on here they haven’t.

Yet in post #1672 you are putting all the responsibility on Gordon Brown’s over borrowing, even though it was the 2008 global recession that affected everyone and something had to be done.
Click to expand...

The global crash was triggered by the collapse of the sub-prime mortgage market in the USA. Gordon Brown's failing was overextending, believing the boom would go on longer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd ask the question would anyone take out a huge loan on the back of potential earnings in a volatile jobs market. He was a bit reckless.
 
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