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AND HERE WE GO - THE 2019 GENERAL ELECTION THREAD

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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost always) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
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I don't underestimate the worth of good nurses, the stresses etc but £35k is a good salary. The counter to that is what are the alternate jobs that the thousands of nurses could do otherwise at the same salary, same security?
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost always) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
Click to expand...

A band 6 nurse with 6-7 years experience will be earning £33, 779 a year in the new tax year and that's not a good salary really.. As for the point of expectation, hours worked, no breaks and working conditions it really make me wonder what some people consider to be a poor wage because trust me that really is a decent wage in a job with prospects, in a relatively comfortable environment. I'm not saying it's not stressful and not hard graft but that's not a pittance and not a salary that would make life a struggle.

Compare it to other services like the Army as an example the comparable level of promotion with the same years working is a salary of £25,625. I'd argue the job they do is in many instances more stressful, worse working conditions, 12hr + shifts are more like 3month + tours of duty without a day off or going home to your family to complain about the conditions.

Whilst I am not posting this to undermine the value of the NHS at all and what they do I'd also argue with anyone saying earning 34k is a poor wage with poor conditions, when the national average for other services and all wages is far lower and worse off.
 
did And still we get government ministers and various spouting the line Tories will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have Two Referendums

Putting aside that Brexit will most very likely NOT be fully done in 2020 (after all recall that Brexit was always defined as a two phase process - leave and re-engage); what did Corbyn say about a next Scottish referendum?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-corbyn-sturgeon-two-years-a9214516.html

Not for at least two years is what he said. Yet the Conservative and Brexit Party (Brexit seeming to have replaced Unionist as a priority for the Tory Party) continue to peddle the line that under Labour there WILL be two referendum next year.

They further dissemble by directing it at the UK electorate when they UK electorate will NEVER be subject to an IndeyRef2. But the Brendas from Brizzle will be moaning - Not another TWO. Don't worry Brenda - they are spinning you one.
 
harpo_72 said:
Probably because you need to do the journey ... you can tell people the answer but they don’t believe. But if you make them experience it they learn more .. management my friend be supportive and hold a few hands but let them make their own decisions 🤣.. I know it’s a pain in the butt if you need to get stuff done!
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I have.better things to do than check out Doons ramblings.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
I don't underestimate the worth of good nurses, the stresses etc but £35k is a good salary. The counter to that is what are the alternate jobs that the thousands of nurses could do otherwise at the same salary, same security?
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or - same salary, same stress? Not that many. At the more senior experienced nurse level many would be paid a good deal more.
 
Wolf said:
A band 6 nurse with 6-7 years experience will be earning £33, 779 a year in the new tax year and that's not a good salary really.. As for the point of expectation, hours worked, no breaks and working conditions it really make me wonder what some people consider to be a poor wage because trust me that really is a decent wage in a job with prospects, in a relatively comfortable environment. I'm not saying it's not stressful and not hard graft but that's not a pittance and not a salary that would make life a struggle.

Compare it to other services like the Army as an example the comparable level of promotion with the same years working is a salary of £25,625. I'd argue the job they do is in many instances more stressful, worse working conditions, 12hr + shifts are more like 3month + tours of duty without a day off or going home to your family to complain about the conditions.

Whilst I am not posting this to undermine the value of the NHS at all and what they do I'd also argue with anyone saying earning 34k is a poor wage with poor conditions, when the national average for other services and all wages is far lower and worse off.
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I'm not a fan of comparing one once cherished and valued sector of public service with another - when nowadays neither is particularly well served on that front.
 
Grant85 said:
I think this is a big issue in terms of attracting or keeping people in the profession. Time was it used to be a great second income for a house if one partner was a teacher or a nurse (obviously it was usually the wife, but clearly no reason that it wouldn't be the husband). Could generally work around childcare and salary was good in the context of cost of living etc.

Now though things have moved on. People work flexibly, most working families balance child care around nursery and retired baby boomer grandparents and of course many households will have 2 parents that are professionals as opposed to working in vocational areas - such as nursing and teaching.

Ultimately being a teacher or a nurse at £35,000 or so is now no longer a great salary and I'm sure doesn't attract anything like the number of young people it once did. And sadly is certainly not going to attract many high achievers into these roles.

Basically the only solution to this is pay nurses & teachers a much higher salary and ensure that current staff and new entrants fulfil high standards.

My wife is a nurse and you might be surprised to learn that the biggest dent in morale is not pay or hospital buildings, it is colleagues phoning in sick and long term sickness. So as I said, raise the salary and raise the standards and those who think it's an easy 'job for life' can move on and they will find it much easier to retain and recruit staff by offering proper salaries.
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There has always been high sickness rates in public services.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
did And still we get government ministers and various spouting the line Tories will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have Two Referendums

Putting aside that Brexit will most very likely NOT be fully done in 2020 (after all recall that Brexit was always defined as a two phase process - leave and re-engage); what did Corbyn say about a next Scottish referendum?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-corbyn-sturgeon-two-years-a9214516.html

Not for at least two years is what he said. Yet the Conservative and Brexit Party (Brexit seeming to have replaced Unionist as a priority for the Tory Party) continue to peddle the line that under Labour there WILL be two referendum next year.

They further dissemble by directing it at the UK electorate when they UK electorate will NEVER be subject to an IndeyRef2. But the Brendas from Brizzle will be moaning - Not another TWO. Don't worry Brenda - they are spinning you one.
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I suspect that if Jeremy Corbyn gets a sniff of being able to get the keys to Downing Street he might be persuaded to agree a 2nd Scottish referendum if he needs SNP support to give him the numbers.

It's a bit like the Labour claim that the Tories will sell off the NHS. Both sides are trying to put out negative stories, that have little or no evidence to support them, about the other in the hope that enough people will believe it and vote the way they want them to vote.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
or - same salary, same stress? Not that many. At the more senior experienced nurse level many would be paid a good deal more.
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Doing what, in the numbers that nurses are? I remember knowing many teachers and having this conversation. They seem to think that the world was waiting with open arms with well paid jobs. Most stayed as teachers as reality was very different.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I'm not a fan of comparing one once cherished and valued sector of public service with another - when nowadays neither is particularly well served on that front.
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That sums up the whole point I'm getting at and as a response is politician style cop out because your happy to state someone earning 34k is underpaid and under valued as it meets with your agenda but not being a fan of comparing or perhaps being willing to compare it to something similar in that it's working effectively for the people on behalf of a government that sets the pay scales for them both with a much lower rate of pay and far worse working conditions shows your not looking at in a balanced way but looking at it with blinkers on that only suits your part.

Politicians should be making these comparisons across all those sectors and bringing them all in line.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost always) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
Click to expand...

Many of the nurses that I have chatted to over the last few years choose to work 12 hour days but only work 3 days a week.
They find the 3 days on tough but well worth it for the 4 days off.
 
ColchesterFC said:
I suspect that if Jeremy Corbyn gets a sniff of being able to get the keys to Downing Street he might be persuaded to agree a 2nd Scottish referendum if he needs SNP support to give him the numbers.

It's a bit like the Labour claim that the Tories will sell off the NHS. Both sides are trying to put out negative stories, that have little or no evidence to support them, about the other in the hope that enough people will believe it and vote the way they want them to vote.
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That may or may not be true - but it is not Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives. And unfortunately it is a lie.

It would not be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK. Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
That may or may not be true - but it is not Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives. And unfortunately it is a lie.

It would not be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK. Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.
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And therefore must be a lie being spread by the leader of the SNP. Strange how your posts are so one sided or don't you listen to what the SNP leader has been saying.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
That may or may not be true - but it is not Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives. And unfortunately it is a lie.

It would not be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK. Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.
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Selling the NHS is not a Tory party policy so by your definition that must be a lie being spun by the Labour party.
 
ColchesterFC said:
Selling the NHS is not a Tory party policy so by your definition that must be a lie being spun by the Labour party.
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Yes - unless there is evidence that indicates that the Tory Party is currently planning to sell off some NHS services and has been comfortable selling off services in the past. The main concern that I have is that serious underfunding will lead to failing services and at that point the government can makes a case for privatisation being the only remaining solution to improving provision of a failing service.

And the big issue for me is going to be staffing - current staffing issues exacerbated by Brexit and the immigration controls that the government will feel obliged to implement - and EU27 NHS staff deciding they've had enough and heading home. Privatisation of front-line NHS services will only result in higher cost and poorer service...and as a result the demand for Private Health Cover will increase - and folks will be shocked when they find out the cost especially for existing conditions - and a two tier service will result. I fear.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Yes - unless there is evidence that indicates that the Tory Party is currently planning to sell off some NHS services and has been comfortable selling off services in the past. The main concern that I have is that serious underfunding will lead to failing services and at that point the government can makes a case for privatisation being the only remaining solution to improving provision of a failing service.

And the big issue for me is going to be staffing - current staffing issues exacerbated by Brexit and the immigration controls that the government will feel obliged to implement - and EU27 NHS staff deciding they've had enough and heading home. Privatisation of front-line NHS services will only result in higher cost and poorer service...and as a result the demand for Private Health Cover will increase - and folks will be shocked when they find out the cost especially for existing conditions - and a two tier service will result. I fear.
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Perhaps you can show some evidence instead of making claims.
 
Old Skier said:
And therefore must be a lie being spread by the leader of the SNP. Strange how your posts are so one sided or don't you listen to what the SNP leader has been saying.
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I heard exactly what Sturgeon said about what she thought Corbyn would do to get the SNP support. She didn't lie. She said that she felt very confident that Corbyn would accede to an SNP request for a referendum as a quid pro quo (oh God no...) for her support. Even then I am not sure that her demand would be for a 2020 IndyRef2. Indeed it might suit her better for IndyRef2 to happen in 2021 following a further Tory Brexitbacle.
 
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