A few Questions for Joel Tadman

[evahakool]

Hi Joel, I read your article Distance is king in this months magazine with interest.

I would have liked to have seen the dispersion rate of the 87 players who gained yardage with there drives

In part of your article you state "If your not using the latest kit,or you haven't been fitted for your driver, your being left behind"

Now most average golfers are not going for custom fit ,so i would question your statement about using the latest kit holding you back, I would argue that the opposite is the case given that the majority of manufactures are making the shafts of drivers too long and making the game harder for the average golfer.

I would be very interested to hear the driver lengths recommend for the 88 golfers.

 

[MikeH]

Joel is on a product launch this week but he'll answer when he is back in next week

 

[chrisd]

Hi Joel, I read your article Distance is king in this months magazine with interest.

I would have liked to have seen the dispersion rate of the 87 players who gained yardage with there drives

In part of your article you state "If your not using the latest kit,or you haven't been fitted for your driver, your being left behind"

Now most average golfers are not going for custom fit ,so i would question your statement about using the latest kit holding you back, I would argue that the opposite is the case given that the majority of manufactures are making the shafts of drivers too long and making the game harder for the average golfer.

I would be very interested to hear the driver lengths recommend for the 88 golfers.

I was at that event and actually did the long drive comp too.

They were only interested in giving everyone more distance with the driver. They didn't talk dispersion with the new drivers but then they didn't when we hit our own drivers, it was purely a distance increase measurement On the day the wind was approx 45mph so it was extremely difficult to hit consistently anyway.

I firmly believe that you shouldn't buy any club without a launch monitor fitting but accept that new models barely change from the immediate past version, for me, 3 new versions later would possibly be the way to go.

The shaft lengths on offer are rarely different in length, just in flex but the length has to, in some way, be match to the weight, flex and speed

 

[evahakool]

I was at that event and actually did the long drive comp too.

They were only interested in giving everyone more distance with the driver. They didn't talk dispersion with the new drivers but then they didn't when we hit our own drivers, it was purely a distance increase measurement On the day the wind was approx 45mph so it was extremely difficult to hit consistently anyway.

I firmly believe that you shouldn't buy any club without a launch monitor fitting but accept that new models barely change from the immediate past version, for me, 3 new versions later would possibly be the way to go.

The shaft lengths on offer are rarely different in length, just in flex but the length has to, in some way, be match to the weight, flex and speed

Thanks for the swift reply, very interesting and I agree with all that you say, the article in the magazine came across to me as somewhat of a advertising campaign for,in this instance Calloway.

It was the advice for everyone to go out and buy a new driver as its holding you back if you don't I had issues with.

You say the shaft lengths rarely differ in length , this is what annoys me about manufacturers making shaft lengths 45.5 plus when the average U.S. Tour pro length is 44.5.

I hope you enjoyed your day and it is fun to hit a new driver.

 

[evahakool]

Joel is on a product launch this week but he'll answer when he is back in next week

Thanks for the swift reply, I will look forward to hearing his replys

 

[Hobbit]

You say the shaft lengths rarely differ in length , this is what annoys me about manufacturers making shaft lengths 45.5 plus when the average U.S. Tour pro length is 44.5.

Very good point. In each of my last 3 iron fittings the fitter has recommended a non-standard length - all recommending the same increase, which was pleasing to hear... wonder why this isn't the case for a driver fitting?

 

[Jtadman]

Hi evahakool. Appreciate you getting in touch.

The sentence you're referring to, based on feedback from fitters on the day and from my experience running reader fitting days over the years, covers the overwhelming majority of amateur golfers who have not been fitted for their current driver or were using models 3, 4, 5 or more years old... many fitted into both these criteria!

Like Chrisd says, the goal of the day, being a 'Kings of Distance' event, was to achieve more yards with the driver. Dispersion took a back seat slightly, although if they were spraying the ball about all over the place - I'm sure the golfers a) wouldn't have achieved more distance on average and b) wouldn't have agreed to this driver spec. The testing conditions (strong sidewinds) also meant dispersion figures were skewed somewhat.

You're right in that a lot of golfers will buy a driver straight off the rack - my sentence, and this day with Callaway, was designed to show the benefits of a fitting and with all but one achieving more yards, the results are there for all to see.

Yes, driver shafts are shorter on tour than they are in the hands of most amateurs, but I'd argue many amateurs would accept as much help as they can get in achieving more distance, while tour pros with faster swing speeds would prioritise accuracy on the penal courses they play week-in-week-out. Many manufacturers offer shorter stock shafts through their custom programmes free of charge so the option is always there.

Hope this clears up your query!

Joel

 

[MendieGK]

Hi evahakool. Appreciate you getting in touch.

The sentence you're referring to, based on feedback from fitters on the day and from my experience running reader fitting days over the years, covers the overwhelming majority of amateur golfers who have not been fitted for their current driver or were using models 3, 4, 5 or more years old... many fitted into both these criteria!

Like Chrisd says, the goal of the day, being a 'Kings of Distance' event, was to achieve more yards with the driver. Dispersion took a back seat slightly, although if they were spraying the ball about all over the place - I'm sure the golfers a) wouldn't have achieved more distance on average and b) wouldn't have agreed to this driver spec. The testing conditions (strong sidewinds) also meant dispersion figures were skewed somewhat.

You're right in that a lot of golfers will buy a driver straight off the rack - my sentence, and this day with Callaway, was designed to show the benefits of a fitting and with all but one achieving more yards, the results are there for all to see.

Yes, driver shafts are shorter on tour than they are in the hands of most amateurs, but I'd argue many amateurs would accept as much help as they can get in achieving more distance, while tour pros with faster swing speeds would prioritise accuracy on the penal courses they play week-in-week-out. Many manufacturers offer shorter stock shafts through their custom programmes free of charge so the option is always there.

Hope this clears up your query!

Joel

I agree with this 100%, as someone who swing speed is as fast (if not faster) than the very large majority of tour pros, i have a driver that is over 1inch shorter than standard. Purely to try and limit by really bad drives going as badly into trouble.

Having previouslt been on a Callaway KoD day, it is absolutely a marketing campaign for Callaway, but why shouldnt it be? they put on a great day so deserve to get a positive write up in the magazine.

 

[evahakool]

Hi evahakool. Appreciate you getting in touch.

The sentence you're referring to, based on feedback from fitters on the day and from my experience running reader fitting days over the years, covers the overwhelming majority of amateur golfers who have not been fitted for their current driver or were using models 3, 4, 5 or more years old... many fitted into both these criteria!

Like Chrisd says, the goal of the day, being a 'Kings of Distance' event, was to achieve more yards with the driver. Dispersion took a back seat slightly, although if they were spraying the ball about all over the place - I'm sure the golfers a) wouldn't have achieved more distance on average and b) wouldn't have agreed to this driver spec. The testing conditions (strong sidewinds) also meant dispersion figures were skewed somewhat.

You're right in that a lot of golfers will buy a driver straight off the rack - my sentence, and this day with Callaway, was designed to show the benefits of a fitting and with all but one achieving more yards, the results are there for all to see.

Yes, driver shafts are shorter on tour than they are in the hands of most amateurs, but I'd argue many amateurs would accept as much help as they can get in achieving more distance, while tour pros with faster swing speeds would prioritise accuracy on the penal courses they play week-in-week-out. Many manufacpturers offer shorter stock shafts through their custom programmes free of charge so the option is always there.

Hope this clears up your query!

Joel

Thanks for the reply Joel

I appreciate that this day was all about distance and nearly all improved in this respect.


My concern was the quote about getting left behind if you don't use the latest equipment , now I would differ from your view that most golfers would appreciate more help with distance with a driver, I think most golfers would gladly give up 20 yards of distance if it ment they could hit more fairways.
Also IMO the industry continually updating drivers with shafts that are to long IMO,and using robotic testing to claim the latest driver goes X amount longer is to the detriment of most golfers.

I appreciate that you can get a fitting for the length of shaft that suits you but I'm talking more about the average club golfer who never goes for a fitting.

I read a article by Tom Wishon which was very interesting and in it I think he said that 75% of golfers are using drivers with shafts that are to long.

It seems senseless to me that most club golfers are useing longer shafts than most pros.

 

[evahakool]

I agree with this 100%, as someone who swing speed is as fast (if not faster) than the very large majority of tour pros, i have a driver that is over 1inch shorter than standard. Purely to try and limit by really bad drives going as badly into trouble.

Having previouslt been on a Callaway KoD day, it is absolutely a marketing campaign for Callaway, but why shouldnt it be? they put on a great day so deserve to get a positive write up in the magazine.

Interesting views,
So I would assume you think by using a shorter shaft that driver shafts in general are to long,your last paragraph was interesting ,I'm sure anybody that was lucky enough to be on one of these days would really enjoy it.
But just because they put on a great day does it automatically follow they deserve to have a positive review in a magazine ?

As you say ultimately it's just a marketing policy, and for Golf Monthly to give a IMO a unbalanced review is wrong.

I appreciate its hard for any magazine to give a truly balanced review because of the advertising, but a golf magazine should have some responsibility to its readers, and to keep reviewing drivers and not mentioning the pros and cons of driver lengths is wrong.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Thanks for the reply Joel

I appreciate that this day was all about distance and nearly all improved in this respect.


My concern was the quote about getting left behind if you don't use the latest equipment , now I would differ from your view that most golfers would appreciate more help with distance with a driver, I think most golfers would gladly give up 20 yards of distance if it ment they could hit more fairways.
Also IMO the industry continually updating drivers with shafts that are to long IMO,and using robotic testing to claim the latest driver goes X amount longer is to the detriment of most golfers.

I appreciate that you can get a fitting for the length of shaft that suits you but I'm talking more about the average club golfer who never goes for a fitting.

I read a article by Tom Wishon which was very interesting and in it I think he said that 75% of golfers are using drivers with shafts that are to long.

It seems senseless to me that most club golfers are useing longer shafts than most pros.

Some really good points there. But unfortunately the whole golf industry is obsessed with distance on drivers. And the vast majority of amateurs want more of it so are a captive market for any adverts that suggest this club will do that.

 

[Foxholer]

...But just because they put on a great day does it automatically follow they deserve to have a positive review in a magazine ?
...

Er...Yes it does - imo!

Though I think I see what you are getting at - and agree to quite an extent.

I went to the same KoD day as MengieGK (Stoke Park) and everything about it was top-notch - advice on all parts of the game, entertainment, Tour guys/truck and food. While magazines do depend on adverts from suppliers for revenue, so have to be careful about criticism, they also need to avoid simply being part of suppliers marketing teams!

The Driver aspect (on a still day from memory) was definitely simply about increasing distance though - but had the dispersion been much worse, I would have been pretty critical of the 'fitting'! As it was, the fitting was just about perfect! I'd actually pretty much agree with Joel's statement! That was why I actually went and got fitted back in 2003! Since then, I've been able to do my own though - using the 'current' Driver as a reference.

 

[MikeH]

Interesting views,

But just because they put on a great day does it automatically follow they deserve to have a positive review in a magazine ?

As you say ultimately it's just a marketing policy, and for Golf Monthly to give a IMO a unbalanced review is wrong.

I appreciate its hard for any magazine to give a truly balanced review because of the advertising, but a golf magazine should have some responsibility to its readers, and to keep reviewing drivers and not mentioning the pros and cons of driver lengths is wrong.

evahkool correct me if I'm wrong but the statement you seemed to have the biggest issue was the one about getting left behind if you don't use the latest equipment?

Firstly that isn’t a promotion for Callaway - although the statement was made in a column that was about the KOD day where we had our view backed up by seeing nearly 100 fittings - its a promotion for trying new product and getting it properly fitted if you haven’t upgraded for a while and/or haven’t been fitted before

If a golfer falls into the not upgraded recently/not been fitted categories then we believe the vast majority of them will see significant performance versus their current gear. And so it follows we believe if you don’t take those options then you most likely giving up performance - distance being one facet of that.

As an aside I doubt you'd find that many golfers who give up 20 yards for more accuracy. 5 yes, 10 possibly. Any more I'm not convinced

 

[evahakool]

evahkool correct me if I'm wrong but the statement you seemed to have the biggest issue was the one about getting left behind if you don't use the latest equipment?

Firstly that isn’t a promotion for Callaway - although the statement was made in a column that was about the KOD day where we had our view backed up by seeing nearly 100 fittings - its a promotion for trying new product an=d +getting it properly fitted if you haven’t upgraded for a while and/or haven’t been fitted before

If a golfer falls into the not upgraded recently/not been fitted categories then we believe the vast majority of them will see significant performance versus their current gear. And so it follows we believe if you don’t take those options then you most likely giving up performance - distance being one facet of that.

As an aside I doubt you'd find that many golfers who give up 20 yards for more accuracy. 5 yes, 10 possibly. Any more I'm not convinced

Yes you are correct Mike it's about being advised to use new drivers, whilst I agree to some extent most golfers would benefit from a custom fit for drivers, but I would suggest many golfers play without getting a custom fit .

It's these golfers I'm mostly referring to, and I think the golfing industry is pushing distance to the overall detriment of many golfers.

As we know most manufactures bring out new drivers every year, it's very rare in any golf magazine to advise about driver lengths.

Perhaps it would make a good article to get a range of low/ mid/ high h/cs to test a latest model of any driver then to try the same model with a shorter shaft fitted.

I'm sure the the stats would show a loss of distance but I think the accuracy would be of more benefit . IMO this game is hard enough without the manufactures making it harder with longer shafts.

I think will will have to agree to disagree about golfers giving up distance for accuracy, but your wrong

 

[MendieGK]

Interesting views,
So I would assume you think by using a shorter shaft that driver shafts in general are to long,your last paragraph was interesting ,I'm sure anybody that was lucky enough to be on one of these days would really enjoy it.
But just because they put on a great day does it automatically follow they deserve to have a positive review in a magazine ?

As you say ultimately it's just a marketing policy, and for Golf Monthly to give a IMO a unbalanced review is wrong.

I appreciate its hard for any magazine to give a truly balanced review because of the advertising, but a golf magazine should have some responsibility to its readers, and to keep reviewing drivers and not mentioning the pros and cons of driver lengths is wrong.

I'm firmly in the camp of 'better to be 280 in the rough, than 230 in the fairway' so I don't really have an issue with length of driver, I'm in the lucky position to not need more distance, so can have that luxury of losing some length in the search for more accuracy.

i do however take issue with companies marketing distance without informing the consumer as to how. If it's added shaft length, then make them aware of that.

At the KoD day the fitter said he could gain me 10yds, but the shaft was 1.5inches longer - basically proving the driver I had currently was more efficient and better fitted.

The problem with magazines, is that if they give bad reviews on product they will ultimately lose the trust of the provider, when have you ever seen a review which says 'this club is rubbish' - you never will.

 

[evahakool]

MendieGk. As I've never had a driver fitting I would be intersted to know if when you have a fitting is it solely aimed at getting you more distance? Obviously they will fit you for the best shaft etc. but do they advise you on shaft lengths if you don't ask them?

As to magazines reviewing clubs my view is they should give a more rounded view of a club , instead of advising golfers to go and get fitted and get the latest club to get more distance and not be left behind, they should also advise on the pitfalls of getting a new driver with possibley the wrong length of shaft for them.

 

[Rooter]

MendieGk. As I've never had a driver fitting I would be intersted to know if when you have a fitting is it solely aimed at getting you more distance?

Mendie Does not need more distance! he is at least an average forum driver!! Last week, 511 yard par 5, i witnessed driver, wedge, 2 putt birdie.

 

[tiffanywtso]

I appreciate its hard for any magazine to give a truly balanced review because of the advertising, but a golf magazine should have some responsibility to its readers, and to keep reviewing drivers and not mentioning the pros and cons of driver lengths is wrong

 

[chrisd]

I wouldn't buy any club without a fitting anymore than I'd buy a car without a test drive. I have done 2 Callaway KOD meets and on the first one gained about 30 yards with their product and on the second only about 10 - I was lucky enough to be given a new driver as I was in the winning team on the 1st occasion and still play a Callaway driver as a result, as they only gave a few yards extra on the 2nd meet I didn't see any point in changing and I don't think that Trackman showed my dispersion would improve.

If you have a proper fitting you should have the concrete proof that any recommended club will work for you whatever the shaft length, why would you need warning about shaft lengths ?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

MendieGk. As I've never had a driver fitting I would be intersted to know if when you have a fitting is it solely aimed at getting you more distance? Obviously they will fit you for the best shaft etc. but do they advise you on shaft lengths if you don't ask them?

As to magazines reviewing clubs my view is they should give a more rounded view of a club , instead of advising golfers to go and get fitted and get the latest club to get more distance and not be left behind, they should also advise on the pitfalls of getting a new driver with possibley the wrong length of shaft for them.

A CF is based on hitting the ball better - which basically means further and straighter.

Most of the worlds bigger hitters are pretty straight hitters because they hit the ball out of the middle of the club at a higher speed. So good technique coupled with the right equipment is the answer.

Also, distance is King - a pro will put a new driver in the bag if it gains him 2 yards (I believe Justin Rose has said as much in interviews), so why wouldn't an amateur do the same.