3 minutes to find ball

[rulefan]

All that's been done is questions asked about how to time it when generally most golfers don't time it

I don't have a big issue with players who make an attempt to measure the time. But players' estimations of minutes are erratic to say the least.
Anything arriving late - 'I've been waiting hours'. Something arriving early - 'Gosh that was quick' or 'I'm not ready yet'.

I really have trouble in understanding how anyone can play competition golf and ignore one of the fundamental rules. How do they deal with a ball 'nearly' in bounds, nearly in a penalty area, nearly in the hole ....?

perhaps this is something that can be looked at for clarity, even os there a possible option clubs can put in an LR that people must carry a timing device for ball searches..

I don't see the RBs introducing a rule change. I'm sure they simply expect the the player will have access to a method of determining, with pretty high level of accuracy, when his ball has become lost

It's even been pointed out someone here plays with R&A official that helps at the open and Am yet he doesn't use a timer...

Unless this person is actually a referee not just a helper, they would not be expected to need a timer. (I must have missed that post).

 

[Wolf]

I don't have a big issue with players who make an attempt to measure the time. But players' estimations of minutes are erratic to say the least.
Anything arriving late - 'I've been waiting hours'. Something arriving early - 'Gosh that was quick' or 'I'm not ready yet'.

I really have trouble in understanding how anyone can play competition golf and ignore one of the fundamental rules. How do they deal with a ball 'nearly' in bounds, nearly in a penalty area, nearly in the hole ....?

Nobody here has said they are ignoring the rules merely questioning how using the rules it should be applied when a rule states a time but does not state it must be done using something to time it, to then make a leap from that to say they would ignore rules in other areas of the game is ridiculous, it seems those that raise a valid question are deemed cheats and loose with all rules because they have the audacity to raise a valid query.

Even more ridiculous when that same query is brought up by a friend and they're told in open forum its OK I believe you would uphold the rules. That's more of a mockery of the rules than someone questioning it because it implies as its their mate they're OK with estimates but anyone else is a cheat

I don't see the RBs introducing a rule change. I'm sure they simply expect the the player will have access to a method of determining, with pretty high level of accuracy, when his ball has become lost

I'm not per se asking for a RB change though that would help, but can a club introduce it as an LR that way stops ambiguity at my club for example

Unless this person is actually a referee not just a helper, they would not be expected to need a timer. (I must have missed that post).

Yep was stated thus person is a referee so is he cheating to.

I understand the common sense thing but clearly this is something happening at all clubs at all levels so surely anything to stop ambiguous claims of cheating is good.

 

[rulie]

Let's drop the "cheating" accusations and stick to Rules breaches and player integrity.

 

[Wolf]

Let's drop the "cheating" accusations and stick to Rules breaches and player integrity.

Sadly we can't because the accusations have been made already, integrity went out the window when we were called cheats and told we're fast and loose with rules because we have a question. Accusations can't be dropped when already made. Sadly is a simple honest debate that should be able to be spoken about that others have made accusations on

As for breaches we're trying to ascertain is there a way perhaps an LR can be brought in to stop these accusations being levied.

 

[rulie]

What local Rule would you be suggesting?

 

[Wolf]

What local Rule would you be suggesting?

I guess a simple one would be can a club introduce an LR that says something like

"when searching for a ball players must using a timing device"

That way whether it be a watch, mobile or whatever it can be done in accordance with the LR. Thus taking out these accusations that have been made here that anyone that doesn't use one is a cheat and fast and loose with all rules because of this one we're asking about.

That's where the ambiguity has come in on this thread that the rules state a time but do not state you must actually time it. We all know about common sense etc but clearly up and down the land many more people do not use timing devices than there are those that do. If something therefore states one must be used then there can't be any arguments and people don't need to say everyone except them with their timer has questionable integrity.

If they can then that's something anyone of us can take to our clubs as a recommendation, if they cant then this loophole will never be closed with or without common sense.

 

[Marshy77]

Can't wait for someone to get fit for a stop watch.

 

[patricks148]

Unless this person is actually a referee not just a helper, they would not be expected to need a timer. (I must have missed that post).

Both Are on the Rules Committee of the R&A and one of them still Referee's at R&A comps, does the open every year and some of the other tournaments, he doesn't wear a watch or carry is phone while playing golf... of course he would be if he were at a tournament and in his official capacity. But that wasn't the point he was mentioned

 

[rulie]

I guess a simple one would be can a club introduce an LR that says something like

"when searching for a ball players must using a timing device"

That way whether it be a watch, mobile or whatever it can be done in accordance with the LR. Thus taking out these accusations that have been made here that anyone that doesn't use one is a cheat and fast and loose with all rules because of this one we're asking about.

That's where the ambiguity has come in on this thread that the rules state a time but do not state you must actually time it. We all know about common sense etc but clearly up and down the land many more people do not use timing devices than there are those that do. If something therefore states one must be used then there can't be any arguments and people don't need to say everyone except them with their timer has questionable integrity.

If they can then that's something anyone of us can take to our clubs as a recommendation, if they cant then this loophole will never be closed with or without common sense.

It's unlikely that local Rule would be approved by the ruling body it' no different now than it was with five minutes - it's the player's responsibility to play with integrity and within the Rules.

 

[Wolf]

Can't wait for someone to get fit for a stop watch.

Yeah but will it come in a left handed option... Will it fit every hand size or will I need to opt for a ladies version with my massive hands 😉
Plus I wanna know if there's a carbon fibre option to make it lighter for quicker pulling out of my pocket 😂

 

[Wolf]

It's unlikely that local Rule would be approved by the ruling body it' no different now than it was with five minutes - it's the player's responsibility to play with integrity and within the Rules.

So simple answer then like we thought all along no way of governing it, no way of pulling anyone on it. We just have to accept that by likes of certain forumers we will be accused of cheating, having questionable integrity and clearly break every rule in the book.

I agree with what you say it's no different to when it was 5 mins, when then players didn't get out timers and trusted it was within the time limits. Yet now its 3 mins our integrity is questionable.

But I appreciate the clarity that something that could have a simple answer likely wouldn't be approved by the ruling body, goes to show even the ruling body won't tell people they must use a device to time it.

 

[Colin L]

Let's give over with all this stuff about cheating and the silly slagging off of contributors to the forum. The only way you can cheat at golf and, I suspect in any other activity is by knowingly, deliberately doing something wrong in order to gain an advantage. Anything you do in innocence or accidentally is not cheating. In the present context, if a player found and played his original ball knowing the time had elapsed, fine, call it cheating if you like.

As far as I'm concerned the application of the rules matters in any form of competition play whereas golfers in their social golf can - and will - do what they please. I personally don't give a fig if social golfers don't bother about this rule or that rule, if they take 4 minutes to find their ball and then play. Consenting adults can do what they like with the rules in their own games. There has been a deal of manipulation of what has been said in order to make it out that it was being said of social golf when it wasn't.

As a last effort, these are what seem to me to be the pertinent facts in the context of competitions.

Your ball is lost if it has not been found after searching for 3 minutes.
You are not breaking any rules by searching for your ball for more than 3 minutes.
You are, however, breaking the rules and liable for penalties either by playing your original ball when it has been found after 3 minutes have elapsed or by continuing to search for an unreasonable length of time ie. unnecessary delay..
You, the player, are responsible for knowing the rules and applying them to your own game. You should be able to time your searches more accurately than by guesswork to avoid the risk of finding your ball after 3 minutes and playing it in ignorance of its status as a lost ball. If you did so, it would be unfair on the rest of the field.
It is remarkably easy to carry a watch with a second hand and to time your search. Your phone is likely to have a stop watch function on it.

It's as simple as that. In a competition, be sure to have the means of timing your searches on you and to use it in order to play fairly. In your social golf, do whatever you and your mates want to do because it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

[Orikoru]

I don't even own a watch let alone wear one. When I did used to have one I took it off for golf because I didn't like it on my wrist when swinging, it also got sweaty in summer and left a tan line.

I think after this lengthy but enjoyable discussion I may resort to a cursory glance at the time on my phone. It won't be completely accurate because it only has hours and minutes, but I would know 100% that if it had ticked into a 4th minute then the time has certainly passed. So that's something.

 

[Wolf]

Let's give over with all this stuff about cheating and the silly slagging off of contributors to the forum. The only way you can cheat at golf and, I suspect in any other activity is by knowingly, deliberately doing something wrong in order to gain an advantage. Anything you do in innocence or accidentally is not cheating. In the present context, if a player found and played his original ball knowing the time had elapsed, fine, call it cheating if you like.

As far as I'm concerned the application of the rules matters in any form of competition play whereas golfers in their social golf can - and will - do what they please. I personally don't give a fig if social golfers don't bother about this rule or that rule, if they take 4 minutes to find their ball and then play. Consenting adults can do what they like with the rules in their own games. There has been a deal of manipulation of what has been said in order to make it out that it was being said of social golf when it wasn't.

As a last effort, these are what seem to me to be the pertinent facts in the context of competitions.

Your ball is lost if it has not been found after searching for 3 minutes.
You are not breaking any rules by searching for your ball for more than 3 minutes.
You are, however, breaking the rules and liable for penalties either by playing your original ball when it has been found after 3 minutes have elapsed or by continuing to search for an unreasonable length of time ie. unnecessary delay..
You, the player, are responsible for knowing the rules and applying them to your own game. You should be able to time your searches more accurately than by guesswork to avoid the risk of finding your ball after 3 minutes and playing it in ignorance of its status as a lost ball. If you did so, it would be unfair on the rest of the field.
It is remarkably easy to carry a watch with a second hand and to time your search.

It's as simple as that. In a competition, be sure to have the means of timing your searches on you and to use it in order to play fairly. In your social golf, do whatever you and your mates want to do because it doesn't affect anyone else.

I don't disagree with anything you have said especially about the accusations.

However your post is indicative of why rules posts go round in circles. Yet again the ruling, wording, interpretation has been posted with an answer of its simple enough to carry a watch.

Yet so many people have posted they don't own one, could use a different device that doesn't display seconds so could still be in breach. Or simply that nobody they play with actually does time it, just like when it was 5mins. Yet nowhere do any of the rules officianados acknowledge that yes there is a potential flaw in a rule, we all know it all do our utmost to abide by it and other rules but because a question is raised as to how according to said rule it should be implemented we end up with 17 pages of going round in circles whereby the only answer is to apply common sense and take responsibility yourself, and people just posting the wording of the rule.

Is there something that stops rules officials from independent thought as to why the majority of golfers don't use a timing device and perhaps to negate the loop hole which many take advantage whether on purpose or inadvertently they simply don't add the words must time the search. Or as rulie points out they probably wouldn't approve an LR.

As Orikoru states above just based on how some on this thread alone have come across I will leave my phone on flight mode and take a cursory glance but that may mean I'm over or under. I don't own a watch for general life let alone golf, I stopped needing one the day I left the Forces. I won't be unlocking my phone for a stop watch because time I've got it out of my bag and started the timer I'm likely to be a good 30seconds into the search anyway.

I think in all honesty it's probably time the MODs locked the thread down as there been to many accusations at people that merely wanted clarity that will never be got.

Appreciate your efforts in trying to bring some understanding along with Rulies and Rulefans. 👍

 

[Orikoru]

Yet so many people have posted they don't own one, could use a different device that doesn't display seconds so could still be in breach. Or simply that nobody they play with actually does time it, just like when it was 5mins. Yet nowhere do any of the rules officianados acknowledge that yes there is a potential flaw in a rule, we all know it all do our utmost to abide by it and other rules but because a question is raised as to how according to said rule it should be implemented we end up with 17 pages of going round in circles whereby the only answer is to apply common sense and take responsibility yourself, and people just posting the wording of the rule.

Is there something that stops rules officials from independent thought as to why the majority of golfers don't use a timing device and perhaps to negate the loop hole which many take advantage whether on purpose or inadvertently they simply don't add the words must time the search. Or as rulie points out they probably wouldn't approve an LR.

As Orikoru states above just based on how some on this thread alone have come across I will leave my phone on flight mode and take a cursory glance but that may mean I'm over or under. I don't own a watch for general life let alone golf, I stopped needing one the day I left the Forces. I won't be unlocking my phone for a stop watch because time I've got it out of my bag and started the timer I'm likely to be a good 30seconds into the search anyway.

Yeah, agree with all of this. I don't think it's reasonable to expect every golfer to measure the time to the exact second, and indeed, the rules don't state that you must. Only that a ball not found within 3 minutes is lost. I'm satisfied that if I glance at my phone for the time as mentioned, I'll be ensuring my search doesn't go on too long, to an acceptable degree of accuracy, and that I'm continuing to comply with the rules fully.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bottom line for me is that I got to know roughly when I was getting close to 5mins - I just knew in my bones. But that is, I suspect, only as a result of having played for many years. I don't (yet) have any great feel for what 3mins is. And that is why I half joking suggested that I might sing She Loves You to myself as I search - younger readers don't even ask...

As SLY is 2min18sec long I know when my time is just about up...or maybe Help at 2min19ses is more appropriate

Any old excuse for a wee sing of a couple of oldies

And that's not long.

 

[Colin L]

To take up golf you got yourself the necessary gear like clubs and balls. You didn't go around a course saying I can't play this game because I don't own any golf balls. If you want to play competition golf get yourself a watch or something to time a search with. As players of integrity you should want to get it right rather than expand your list of lame - although inventive - excuses for not being able to do so.

 

[Orikoru]

To take up golf you got yourself the necessary gear like clubs and balls. You didn't go around a course saying I can't play this game because I don't own any golf balls. If you want to play competition golf get yourself a watch or something to time a search with. As players of integrity you should want to get it right rather than expand your list of lame - although inventive - excuses for not being able to do so.

If you are seriously saying a watch is up there level with clubs and balls as necessary equipment for the game of golf then you are mental. No wonder people don't want to take up the sport. Let's agree to disagree shall we.

 

[Wolf]

To take up golf you got yourself the necessary gear like clubs and balls. You didn't go around a course saying I can't play this game because I don't own any golf balls. If you want to play competition golf get yourself a watch or something to time a search with. As players of integrity you should want to get it right rather than expand your list of lame - although inventive - excuses for not being able to do so.

Nobody has expanded any list of anything they've just stated they take a look at their phone 🤔
Yet to compare owning a watch for the ability to play golf is like owning clubs and balls is imo at least a little odd.

Just getting my club for my next shot, I don't know whether to hit the 9 iron or the Casio.... Yep watch is not much use for playing the game.

I'll stick to my mobile cursory glance and be done with that. Still not seeing how that's an excuse.

Cue the rule being posted word for word again.

 

[patricks148]

Nobody has expanded any list of anything they've just stated they take a look at their phone 🤔
Yet to compare owning a watch for the ability to play golf is like owning clubs and balls is imo at least a little odd.

Just getting my club for my next shot, I don't know whether to hit the 9 iron or the Casio.... Yep watch is not much use for playing the game.

I'll stick to my mobile cursory glance and be done with that. Still not seeing how that's an excuse.

Cue the rule being posted word for word again.

and just when you thought it was done and dusted