Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
As I understand it the rule breach only occurs when a stroke is made with the (borrowed) club, so that'll be the chappie that gets penalised
There's no penalty for 'handling borrowed goods'
2x2ball Matches in a group of four
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
As I understand it the rule breach only occurs when a stroke is made with the (borrowed) club, so that'll be the chappie that gets penalised
There's no penalty for 'handling borrowed goods'
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Generally speaking, the onus is on the player receiving the club not to breach the 14 club limit. There are also restrictions on players sharing clubs, so if a player 'loaned' a club to another player during the round and then received it back again during the same round, then both would likely fall foul of the club limit and club sharing provisions in the Rules.
Have a read of Rule 4.1b then return here if you have further questions.
And just to reiterate, none of this is unique to the 2x2 format that was the original topic of this thread, and nor are any of the other possible infractions cited earlier in the thread.
My perspective is that there are no particular Rules that you need to look out for in this format that would not apply if you were just playing the match as a pair, or if you were playing stroke play in a group of four (aside, of course, from the obvious differences between match play and strole play).
As others have said, sort out the etiquette bits at the start in relation to which pair will tee off first and/or putt first etc.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Fortunately, I do not get any of that experience at my club.
We are primarily a "golfing" club where members are happy to wave through club competition golfers when playing their social games rather than hold them up, within reason and common sense prevailing.
I can, however, imagine some "entitled" golfers being reluctant or refusing to do this.
D-S
Well-known member
You seem to misunderstand, I am not referring to slow social games not waving through faster games, in a competition or otherwise.
I am referring to instances of slow competition games not waving through faster non competition games through and using, as an excuse for their lack of etiquette, some antiquated (in my opinion) club rule that entitles them to hold the field up.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
What about the scenario that a slow comp round is holding up a quicker social group all because they have “precedent”
You keep appearing to suggest thah
Comps = quicker
Social - slower
My experience is the opposite and players playing in a comp KO are slower and then hold up the course because they believe they have precedence because they are ina comp
Colin L
Tour Winner
I would always expect a singles match to be much quicker than a 3 ball stroke play competition group.
On the matter of precedence, even where there is no special status given to a competition match, I'd suggest that the match should, if it goes to the 19th, have precedence over a group waiting at the 1st to start the round.
On the matter of precedence, even where there is no special status given to a competition match, I'd suggest that the match should, if it goes to the 19th, have precedence over a group waiting at the 1st to start the round.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
I am not aware of that happening...................
Oh, just read my posts again.....
Sorry, I must have more patience.
We do not have 4-ball knockouts, only foursomes, which are often quicker than 2-balls.
The scenario you are describing could occur on any of the following,
A 4-bbb team match against another club with pre-notified tee reservations. A ladies club competition played in 3-balls with pre-notified tee reservations.
Any mens Saturday board comp with tee reservations when social golf can be played after the last tee time - usually around 2pm.
A 2-ball social game teeing off immediately behind these types of competition must not expect to be waved through the competition games. It does require some common sense to prevail on the part of the 2-ball social game to find another one or two players to join them, play at a later time or expect a slow game. It does not preclude the last competition game waving the 2-ball through, if it makes sense to do so - eg large gap in front of them. It is a matter of common sense and courtesy for both the 2-ball to not interfere with the competition or match and the competition game to use common sense also.
I have never had to explain this in writing or at such length verbally. It is how it has always been at my club, works well and I can't see it changing anytime soon.
I was in the last group of a seniors match 4-bbb against another club on one occasion when two lads turned up on the tee behind us to play social golf. I asked them whether they would like to play ahead of us and explained the situation. They replied they were aware of the team match and had already had words in the clubhouse to explain they would remain behind out of courtesy. They said they would be happier to do this than try to ask to be waved through each game. All amicable, no entitled people, no one's game spoiled, common sense prevailed. And I am sure that if our game had run into some unexpected lengthy delay, we would have waved them through.
If their approach had been belligerent and/or entitled from the start, I would have had to explain that a 2-ball social must not expect to be let through an organised official club team match with pre-notified tee reservations, but that does not prevent the match from letting them through if it makes common sense to do so.
If I had been one of that two ball, I think that I would have done what they did.
I would not be very keen to join a club where social 2-balls can expect to be waved through a whole field of competition games.
This would disrupt organised competitions and matches far too much and too often.
But a two-ball club competition match can expect to be waved through any social game holding them up, because it is fairly common sense and courtesy, rather than "entitled".
No one at my club should consider that there is a "rule" that "entitles" a competition game to hold up a field of social games.
Social games are expected to use common sense and courtesy to competitions and club matches, if they choose to tee off directly behind them.
They are not "entitled" to play through, should not expect to be waved through, but they may be waved through.
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Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Comp KOs are,
Singles matchplay - generally very quick with conceded putts or even conceded holes before the green.
Foursomes matchplay - can be even quicker than singles with one player already down the hole a distance before partner tees off.
These could possibly hold up a one-ball. Never really thought about that one much to be honest.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Seen those hold up 4BBB social matches
And KOs can also be 4BBB
A social game can be held up by a competitive KO
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
No 4BBB KO at my club.
You must have some very slow players at your club playing singles and foursomes matchplay games.
It must be true that a one ball social player could hold up a 4-ball, but is it really sensible to address these extreme cases with a general-case policy.
A singles matchplay holding up a social game is a rare and extreme case. Could be due to physical and/or age factors, I suppose.
As these are rare and special cases, they would need discretion on a case by case basis.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Or the simple way is
The quicker group has priority on the course regardless of social or competitive play
No need to give any priority to someone in a comp
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Next year our club will be hosting the County Amateur Championship, 36 holes scratch on one day.
Tee times are usually done in handicap order.
I'm trying to imagine a social 2-ball being held up by three of the best players in the county in the afternoon who have lost a complete hole on the group in front of them.
To my mind, the 2-ball should show respect and courtesy and not interfere with the competitive game in front of them, who should and will be given precedence.
How's that for an extreme case that completely blows away your sweeping statement above?
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I would expect that the club would do what I did this year for our county champs and close the tee for a significant time to ensure that no one can play social golf to impact on county champs
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
But a 2-ball could still catch up after a whole hour head start.
I would expect that the club would do what I did this year for our county champs and close the tee for a significant time to ensure that no one can play social golf to impact on county champs
Your sweeping statement falls down in principle.
And while I agree with the strategy to avoid this happening, the strategy is a form of giving the competition precedence over social games.
The 2-ball turns up early, but must wait a whole hour before teeing off with no one in sight on the first 4 holes, because the competition takes precedence.
If they do catch up - they will not be waved through either - because the competition takes precedence.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Which is why when they have county champs the course is closed all day due to multiple county comps happening
You can keep twisting in some way but it’s very simple - there is no need to give someone playing in a KO any precedence on the course - you just let the quicker players have the priority
rulie
Head Pro
If we don't entirely close the course for the competition (usually do this for outside provincial and national championships), we tell the "social" players not to get within one hole of the last group of the competition and they usually abide.
I would expect that the club would do what I did this year for our county champs and close the tee for a significant time to ensure that no one can play social golf to impact on county champs
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
The situation in the Op is now a common one - especially during the winter months , tee times are finite so you need to maximise that , we can’t have two balls going out before 12 - and there used to be a rule that 2 balls had no priority at all before 12 but that’s removed as is comps priority and now people are smart when they book times
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Is it Summer yet...?
rulie
Head Pro
We don't play in the winter! Course is closed from early November to mid-March at the earliest. "Competitions" are infrequent and focused in May through September. We don't have weekly club comps, just several groups' "swindles".
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
That would be unacceptable in my eyes as it’s simply poor etiquette.
That said I think it is ‘good’ golfing etiquette to let a match through if they are waiting behind the group I’m in. I care not whether they can ‘go anywhere’…I was simply taught that I should always offer. And that also said…I am not sure my view is held consistently across all of my club…but I find that in my experience we do it.
As far as a two ball I’m in getting stuck behind an inter-club match…
If possible the club should have left a buffer of a handful of tee times. That’s not always possible. In any case…if I book a tee time immediately behind such a match I do not expect to be let through even though as a two-ball we will almost certainly be faster - apart from anything else I do not want to disrupt the ‘integrity’ of the match. If a game asks if I wish to play through them I may accept…however I might also decline.
A group waiting behind me if I choose to sit behind a match I’ll let through if they want and let them do whatever. But that’s up to them. However I think the same patience or recognition of the match applies fairly widely in my place…but that’s just my feeling.
