WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

[Old Skier]

There are absolutely zero similarities between those two situations. In fact, they are idiologically at polar opposite ends of the scale. This isn't a race/ethnic war, or a people war, it's a land war and nothing else. Yugoslavia was far more complex.

Even if they were similar though, it doesn't change the fact that we don't have the right to do anything here. We are doing what we're supposed to do and following international law. It's what we didn't go when we went into Iraq and created a whole new generation of terrorists! How did that work out?

I'm interested in your take on the differences between what is happening now and what was happening when I was in yugoslavia, my recollection was one man not accepting the sovereignty of another country, just like now, but I was rather busy at the time so I might have got it wrong.

 

[Old Skier]

What sort of intervention would you have considered appropriate... a) back then?; b) now?

The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos

 

[Foxholer]

The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos

While I agree re Crimea, I consider the East Ukraine invasion simply the initial part of the current conflict. The build-up wasn't sanctionable. It lo needed Ukraine to instigate any request for assistance - and should have happened in 2014.

 

[phillarrow]

I'm interested in your take on the differences between what is happening now and what was happening when I was in yugoslavia, my recollection was one man not accepting the sovereignty of another country, just like now, but I was rather busy at the time so I might have got it wrong.

The UN and the powers to be did IMO fail when he was allowed to walk into Crimea and later the east of Ukraine with very little action taken against him.
The UN has never lived up to expectations when it came to security issues because of the rules around vetos

Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you.

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.

 

[Old Skier]

Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you.

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or anything I post. I have a view, you have a view, people are free to take either view whichever way they like.

 

[Foxholer]

...
In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.

I'm not sure about 'the Ukrainian people'. But certainly the Ukrainian territory/resources - aka somewhat reversing the breakup of USSR.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Interesting how selective you are in your responses without ever responding to the questions that get to the heart of why people disagree with you.

In response to the differences, however, let's start with the ethnic cleansing aspect of what was going on in Yugoslavia. Putin didn't want to kill the Ukrainian people, he wants to assimilate them into being entirely Russian.

So Putin is actually BORG.

Problem is the UN is toothless, How can the country in question be allowed to veto , its rubbish
NATO if it does nothing will witness the slow demise of Ukraine , similar to Chechnia, we either allow it to happen, or we take steps to stop it.

in my opinion a no fly zone will work, Putin wont want to fight NATO, he will lose, Nato wont want to do anything to provoke him, but a couple of shot down jets is unlikely to result in nuclear conflict
Europe and Nato need to step up and show some grit, or its all going to happen again 5 years down the line in the Baltic.

Problem now is how does Putin withdraw and save face,
again just my opinion

 

[Old Skier]

I'm not sure about 'the Ukrainian people'. But certainly the Ukrainian territory/resources - aka somewhat reversing the breakup of USSR.

Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.

 

[phillarrow]

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or anything I post. I have a view, you have a view, people are free to take either view whichever way they like.

Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?

 

[Old Skier]

So Putin is actually BORG.

Problem is the UN is toothless, How can the country in question be allowed to veto , its rubbish
NATO if it does nothing will witness the slow demise of Ukraine , similar to Chechnia, we either allow it to happen, or we take steps to stop it.

in my opinion a no fly zone will work, Putin wont want to fight NATO, he will lose, Nato wont want to do anything to provoke him, but a couple of shot down jets is unlikely to result in nuclear conflict
Europe and Nato need to step up and show some grit, or its all going to happen again 5 years down the line in the Baltic.

Problem now is how does Putin withdraw and save face,
again just my opinion

Interesting NATO meeting today with a briefing on what is going on in Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina because of the build up of our friendly Russian forces in Moldova. Not clever enough to link from Twitter.

 

[Old Skier]

Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?

It it’s generally thought that NATO only operate when another NATO country is attacked but those rules went out of the window during the Serbian/Croatian conflict. What they are now, who knows, perhaps we might be adopting rules that help protect those that need protecting.

 

[Old Skier]

Okay, then allow me to check your view more directly - By what rights can NATO act more than they are doing? What gives NATO the right?

And a quick one back, should we just let Putin take over any country he wishes, if not how do we stop him.

 

[phillarrow]

Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.

It's not.

Milosovic had the goal to exterminate non-Serbians from what he considered to be his home country. He was charged with ethnic-based genocide. The Yugoslavian wars are literally defined in history as Ethnic Wars. This is only about land and sovereignty.

Putin has said that he sees Ukrainian's and Russians as one people. He's not killing them because they're not Russian, he's killing them because they're fighting back.

Yugoslavia was a United nation that broke up after the wars. Ukraine has been a sovereign nation for more than 20 years. Putting something back together after many years isn't the same as stopping it breaking up.

Apart from the fact that one man has too much power, they're are no similarities between these conflicts. ?‍

 

[phillarrow]

It it’s generally thought that NATO only operate when another NATO country is attacked but those rules went out of the window during the Serbian/Croatian conflict. What they are now, who knows, perhaps we might be adopting rules that help protect those that need protecting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?

 

[greenone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?

Correct, UN peacekeeping force.

 

[phillarrow]

And a quick one back, should we just let Putin take over any country he wishes, if not how do we stop him.

As awful as it sounds, yes.
Because the alternative is that we act as self appointed world police.

We should only ever act when NATO countries are attacked or when the UN decide that action is needed.

How many wars are going on right now? How many people are being persecuted daily? How many should we insist that we have the right to get involved in?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Putin to be stopped. I'd kill him myself and happily die to do so if I could. But we are not the world police and it's the fact we've acted this way whenever it suits us (but not when it doesn't) that do many generations of non-Western people are so easily indoctrinated into hating us.

 

[Old Skier]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it was only the UN that went into Yugoslavia, not NATO?

We went in originally wearing a blue beret. It was a disaster and led to the inability to do anything in real time. Thankfully we threw away the blue and scrubbed the UN off the sides of our tanks and were able to act in real time.

 

[Old Skier]

Correct, UN peacekeeping force.

Went in as UN, left as NATO.

 

[Old Skier]

As awful as it sounds, yes.
Because the alternative is that we act as self appointed world police.

We should only ever act when NATO countries are attacked or when the UN decide that action is needed.

How many wars are going on right now? How many people are being persecuted daily? How many should we insist that we have the right to get involved in?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Putin to be stopped. I'd kill him myself and happily die to do so if I could. But we are not the world police and it's the fact we've acted this way whenever it suits us (but not when it doesn't) that do many generations of non-Western people are so easily indoctrinated into hating us.

That’s fine, you have your view, and I have mine and luckily we both have NATO and democracy allowing us to express our views. Unfortunately Ukraine and other countries don’t have that luxury.

 

[Foxholer]

Getting rid of Ukrainian's who want to be Ukrainian and live in Ukraine is ethnic cleansing in my mind.

It would, indeed, be!
But that was not what I was meaning! And you probably know it! Or are, at least, confused/biased by your experience in Yugoslavia - which DID involve 'ethnic cleansing'!