Why do the Left hate Grammar schools so much..

[Deleted member 18588]

If kids are being held back by comps why are we producing more people with degrees right now than before ?

Why should only certain people get the best teachers teaching them ? All that does is create further them and us divides.

Do you not believe in equal opportunities ? Do you not think that every child should get the chance to be taught by the very best - or should that very best teacher be saved for the bright kids only ?

More people with degrees is the result of more university places being available.

As for "best teachers"; how do we define who they are and if we can how do we (society) dictate where those teachers should teach?

If grammar schools are to be the answer then it is essential that the selection process does not favour those with the greatest financial resources, this was not the case in the past when many children from financially poor families were able to pass the 11-plus and enter grammar schools. The education that they then received often led to them advancing and broke that chain of relative poverty.

If, however, we are to remain with the current system then there needs to be an increase in subject streaming and a final ditching of the teaching methods promoted by some academics who were, themselves, products of the so called "revolution in teaching" of the 60's and 70's.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

More people with degrees is the result of more university places being available.

As for "best teachers"; how do we define who they are and if we can how do we (society) dictate where those teachers should teach?

If grammar schools are to be the answer then it is essential that the selection process does not favour those with the greatest financial resources, this was not the case in the past when many children from financially poor families were able to pass the 11-plus and enter grammar schools. The education that they then received often led to them advancing and broke that chain of relative poverty.

If, however, we are to remain with the current system then there needs to be an increase in subject streaming and a final ditching of the teaching methods promoted by some academics who were, themselves, products of the so called "revolution in teaching" of the 60's and 70's.

Not quite correct about the past, there were also kids from poor families who passed the 11+ but couldn't go to Grammar School because their family couldn't afford the uniform or bus fares as the school was not in walking distance.

 

[MadAdey]

Disagree that it comes down to class and money. If the pupil is bright enough they will go to a grammar it's as simple as that.

Surely we want more kids from working class backgrounds to get into good schools and universities? If they don't have the money for private education then state funded grammar schools is the best option for them.

Once in a grammar there is very little distinction between those with money and those that don't. And the kids from normal backgrounds can compete with the rich kids for places at the best universities. I don't think that you can say the same about most comprehensives.

It will come down to money. Parents will not want the stigma that their child didn't get into Grammar school. So what will be the answer........ spend money on private tuition and exam coaching to make sure their child gets a grammar school place. Kids from council estates and working class families will not get these opportunities so it will come down to hard work and being bright enough.

But these grammar schools will only have so many places. I'm not sure how these 11+ exams will be graded, but say for instance it is on a percentage. The grammar school say has only 100 places, that means they will only take the top 100 students. Now the pass mark for that top 100 might be at a 92% pass mark. So any kid under 92% is out of luck.

But if parents that have the financial ability start getting their kids private tuition to pass this exam, then all of a sudden they pick up an extra 5-10%. This then takes that pass mark up to 95% and so the kids that would have got in now do not. But it is not their fault that someone could afford to get tuition for their kid to up it's 11+ result. They have now been punished because of their parents financial situation............... how is this fair?

If I was in that situation I would move hell and high water to make sure my kid got into the Grammar school and if that meant spending money on private tuition and exam coaching, then so be it.

 

[chrisd]

Not quite correct about the past, there were also kids from poor families who passed the 11+ but couldn't go to Grammar School because their family couldn't afford the uniform or bus fares as the school was not in walking distance.

Possibly true Paul but I never had the full school uniform, often had holes in my shoes and had 3 bus rides to my school but I passed the 11+ and nothing was going to stop me going to my school. These days the benefit system is still far more generous than it was then and there are also free school meals now as well. I also worked from the age of 10 and usually bought my lunch myself (but I realise that can't be done now)

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Not quite correct about the past, there were also kids from poor families who passed the 11+ but couldn't go to Grammar School because their family couldn't afford the uniform or bus fares as the school was not in walking distance.

Maybe so but there were plenty of parents who, despite the hardship, managed to send their children to grammar school. My father and mother in law somehow found the necessary funds for my wife to attend a grammar school despite him only ever holding a low paying job.

Hopefully, nowadays society would be sufficiently enlightened to ensure that this barrier would be lowered even further.

In any event I am not necessarily in favour of grammar schools. I am, however, convinced that the status quo ​is not the answer.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Chris/Mickie, I don't have the answers either, but for every exception there's always someone who did manage it, any future state education system needs to be fair for all and not based on the parents finances.

 

[Hobbit]

If kids are being held back by comps why are we producing more people with degrees right now than before ?

Apologies for chopping your post. On the issue of more people getting degrees; there's a doc available from the DoE that shows what today's degrees are worth compared to yester years degrees. It actually compares all adult education, inc C&G, HNC, HND etc. The classic degrees in things like math, science are comparable with those of 20 years ago but many of the 'modern' degrees would struggle to be compared with HND.

Ideal for a recruiting manager, and you'd be amazed how poorly educated some young people are. Not there fault but, for example, you'd be gobsmacked how many technicians can't wire up a mains plug. Bring back apprenticeships!

BTW, I agree with the rest of your post.

Very fair comment, my wife works in a Primary school and says the same things, kids born of abusers, drug addicts, alcoholics etc - mostly they Stan little chance in this world and it does make your heart bleed. I still don't see the most academic kids being denied a grammar education as fair equal opportunity, but I'm sure you were not suggesting that Brian

Chris, there are vast (educational) areas of the U.K. where grammar schools don't exist. That's the unfairness for me. Most Labour heartlands dumped grammar schools 40 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Chris/Mickie, I don't have the answers either, but for every exception there's always someone who did manage it, any future state education system needs to be fair for all and not based on the parents finances.

And I would completely agree with that sentiment.

 

[chrisd]

Chris/Mickie, I don't have the answers either, but for every exception there's always someone who did manage it, any future state education system needs to be fair for all and not based on the parents finances.

I agree Paul, but grammar schools used to cream off the top, say, 25% of children so realistically how far up the ladder could say the 35% child climb ? I remember the borderline kids often preferred to go to the local secondary school so they would be top of the class there and to not feel under so much pressure being, theoretically, the worst in the year group at the grammar.

I paid for my son to have a small amount of maths tuition just before his 11+ but realistically we were pretty sure he'd get there anyway

 

[MadAdey]

I think what this thread is showing is the concern that people have about going back to the 11+ system with Grammar schools, where certain kids will get access to better education and it could be swayed by financial situation, rather than the intelligence of a kid. There are obviously people on here that would be in the position to spend money on giving hteir kid a better chance of getting into one of these schools, but even they are concerned about it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I agree Paul, but grammar schools used to cream off the top, say, 25% of children so realistically how far up the ladder could say the 35% child climb ? I remember the borderline kids often preferred to go to the local secondary school so they would be top of the class there and to not feel under so much pressure being, theoretically, the worst in the year group at the grammar.

I paid for my son to have a small amount of maths tuition just before his 11+ but realistically we were pretty sure he'd get there anyway

It's not the cream that's the issue to me though, unless we get the non-grammar schools correct then we'll have a broken system, let's improve all schools, as someone put before I'm not sure what it is that's broken that Grammar schools alone will fix.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Michael Gove went to Aberdeen Grammar Skool [I believe].
As education minister he said that he wanted 'all of our schools to be above average'.

He must have been off the day they did math.

 

[chrisd]

It's not the cream that's the issue to me though, unless we get the non-grammar schools correct then we'll have a broken system, let's improve all schools, as someone put before I'm not sure what it is that's broken that Grammar schools alone will fix.

I agree with you about the need to improve comprehensive schools but I don't like the idea of the best kids having to be mixed with the worst, the disruptive and wasters.

It's not broken here in Kent, we do have grammar schools and they work really well

 

[sawtooth]

I agree with you about the need to improve comprehensive schools but I don't like the idea of the best kids having to be mixed with the worst, the disruptive and wasters.

It's not broken here in Kent, we do have grammar schools and they work really well

I agree Chris....if it ain't broke.....

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think 16 can be too late for some though. By that time they have spent 2 years failing subjects and ending up with nothing of any use to them. But if you let a kid do some kind of basic engineering course for 2 years, they might come out at 16 with something useful. Then they can either go and try get an apprenticeship or go onto college to take it further with a view to maybe going onto to get a degree.

I wouldn't disagree. I thought it was a mistake by the gov't, can't remember which one it was, when they brought in the extension to the school leavers age. School is not for everyone.

 

[Liverbirdie]

I also have my views on grammar schools (ex-pupil myself) in the one of the last intakes after the 11+.

But were the hell does the OP think all these apprenticeships are available.........

 

[Hacker Khan]

Hacker Khan has raised the subject of 'the pushy middle classes' the trouble with that term is that it is out of date.. The middle classes now do not have a unearned income or stuff like the 50s, they are the sons and daughters of the working class a generation ago. They know what it is to work hard to get where they want to be and they know what it takes to stay there so they want the same for their children. What I dont understand is how anybody could possibly not be a pushy parent!! Its the pushy parents taking their offspring to the swimming baths at 5 in the morning or spending the whole weekend taking their kids to football games 2 hours drive away etc etc.. If you dont want the best for your children and am not willing to bust a gut to give it then that is far far worse than being pushy!

Yea right, You do know that the majority of pupils that get into the existing grammars, especially in places like Kent, are offspring of parents who can afford to privately tutor their kids but can't afford private education. Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kid, but kids being pushed constantly by parents to the determent of their right to basically be a kid and also their mental health, which is an increasing issue in schools catering to pupils of all ages, is not a good thing really IMHO. Yes challenge them, but lets not get into a dog eat dog competition to basically define their life chances at the age of 11.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yea right, You do know that the majority of pupils that get into the existing grammars, especially in places like Kent, are offspring of parents who can afford to privately tutor their kids but can't afford private education. Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kid, but kids being pushed constantly by parents to the determent of their right to basically be a kid and also their mental health, which is an increasing issue in schools catering to pupils of all ages, is not a good thing really IMHO. Yes challenge them, but lets not get into a dog eat dog competition to basically define their life chances at the age of 11.

Does the right to be 'basically be a kid' mean they should be left to decide for themselves whether or not they need to work hard to maximise their potential. I hope not.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Disagree. We didn't private tutor our son.

He never went to a prep school either.

We are good examples where class does not come into it.

Hard work and determination doesn't cost anything.

BTW our daughter goes to a comprehensive and I'm OK with that too. I just accept that she is not as academic as my son.

A boy that was neck and neck with my son at primary school also sat the exam but did not go through. His grades at GCSE are now worlds apart. If he had got into grammar I am sure that he too would have A's across the board. The grammar has high standards and the teachers , parents, pupils try to be as successful as possible.

Not saying that there aren't bright talented kids in comprehensives of course there are. It's just that the culture is different and it has to cater for all abilities. Therefore there is bound to be some holding back of the brightest pupils.

Rightly or wrongly some grammar schools are have academy status as well so they are funded differently. Better facilities and equipment does help too.

This is what is wrong with Grammars.
It's not the success of the few who get into them, it's the lessened opportunity for those who don't.
I understand why parents want individual success for their kids.
But the system should offer the very best opportunity for EVERY child to fulfill their talents, not just the select minority.

 

[Foxholer]

"Why do the left..." They, quite rightly, want equal opportunities for all. Unfortunately, the damage is already done long before the 11+ is anywhere on the horizon.

Daughter #3 teaches in a very poor, inner city area. The poor state many kids arrive at school would make your heart bleed. Some kids even hate Christmas because they won't get properly fed till they return to school in January.

How can a child take advantage of the opportunities if they haven't even taken onboard the right fuel for the day?

It doesn't matter whether there's grammar schools or not, most disadvantaged children won't succeed without intervention long before the 11+.

Replying purely to the question the thread title posed....
I agree with everything Hobbit posts here except for the presence of the word 'opportunities' - and therefore the 'quite rightly' description! Read/recall 'Animal Farm' for how this approach is doomed to failure!

Grammar schools are symbols of what 'the left' detest!

There is no real solution to the political issues involved - even though huge amounts of taxpayer money is being spent on ideologically based approaches!

Better leadership (and) allowing better teachers to actually teach is the best way forward imo!