Why do the Left hate Grammar schools so much..

chrisd said:
We have grammar schools where I live now and imo they really do work still
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I've no doubt they do, but in isolation. The Conps still have access to good teachers. If you segregate the system nationwide, there'll be a short term tidal wave of teacher relocation. The best teachers will gravitate to the Grammar schools.
 
bluewolf said:
I've no doubt they do, but in isolation. The Conps still have access to good teachers. If you segregate the system nationwide, there'll be a short term tidal wave of teacher relocation. The best teachers will gravitate to the Grammar schools.
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All teachers should be good, and if the grammer's cream off the best there still should be a real drive to ensure the rest of the teachers should be excellent
 
I think going back to the old 11+ system is a joke. As people have already touched on, all that is going to happen is parents that can afford it are going to get coaches that will teach their children how to pass the 11+ to get in to Grammer school.

I do think the system needs to be changed though. When kids turn up to do the last 2 years and get their GCSE's they need to get streamed then. Some kids are academically skilled and others aren't. Those kids need to drop most of the GCSE's that they have to do like, art, history, etc etc. Make them still do English and Maths, but then teach them a trade that they can go on and use.

I think a lot of the problem nowadays is that kids who aren't academically skilled loose interest at school and then go on to get poor grades and have no real future. But you take a kid that is good with their hands and not with their brain, then they will be doing something that they can achieve in. My nephew was never very good academically, but by the age of 10 he could carry out a brake job on my brothers Sierra Cosworth. Not the brightest of kids and was never going to go onto great academic achievement, but show him something once and he can repeat it and understand what he is doing.
 
chrisd said:
All teachers should be good, and if the grammer's cream off the best there still should be a real drive to ensure the rest of the teachers should be excellent
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But they're not. You can't justify a policy of social segregation by claiming that it'll drive improvement in the provider. It's a gamble that's never worked. It doesn't drive improvement, it reintroduces a recognisable class system.
 
bluewolf said:
But they're not. You can't justify a policy of social segregation by claiming that it'll drive improvement in the provider. It's a gamble that's never worked. It doesn't drive improvement, it reintroduces a recognisable class system.
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It's not about class it's about ability.

The brightest (rich or poor) should not be held back. They can kick on and achieve greater things.
 
sawtooth said:
It's not about class it's about ability.

The brightest (rich or poor) should not be held back. They can kick on and achieve greater things.
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Are they being held back right now ?

More and more opportunities for kids to go to university than ever before - if the teachers are there then I can't see how a comp school holds kids back regardless of how smart they are

And it does come down to class - richer people can afford private tuition so help their child pass the 11+
 
sawtooth said:
It's not about class it's about ability.

The brightest (rich or poor) should not be held back. They can kick on and achieve greater things.
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What exactly is holding them back currently? Do we not produce World renowned Engineers, Architects, Software developers, Business people, Doctors, Lawyers, Thinkers, Artists, Philosophers, Sports people, Designers, Philanthropists etc etc.

Just what is currently holding us back, because I'm not seeing the evidence that some are seeing.
 
MadAdey said:
I do think the system needs to be changed though. When kids turn up to do the last 2 years and get their GCSE's they need to get streamed then. Some kids are academically skilled and others aren't. Those kids need to drop most of the GCSE's that they have to do like, art, history, etc etc. Make them still do English and Maths, but then teach them a trade that they can go on and use.
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That pretty much happens now at 16. Everyone has to stay on and do some form of further education but the chance to do more practical skills kicks in at this stage. Kids can choose to go to a college that offers the courses you suggest. It can make the last year or two of GCSE's quite tough for some but at least they know that they can leave academic subjects behind at the end of those exams. I agree with you, academic subjects are not for everyone, pretty obvious really.
 
bluewolf said:
What exactly is holding them back currently? Do we not produce World renowned Engineers, Architects, Software developers, Business people, Doctors, Lawyers, Thinkers, Artists, Philosophers, Sports people, Designers, Philanthropists etc etc.

Just what is currently holding us back, because I'm not seeing the evidence that some are seeing.
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Dont let me stop you as I agree with everything you are saying, but what happened to your " this is my one and only post" declaration 6 posts ago? :D
 
Lord Tyrion said:
That pretty much happens now at 16. Everyone has to stay on and do some form of further education but the chance to do more practical skills kicks in at this stage. Kids can choose to go to a college that offers the courses you suggest. It can make the last year or two of GCSE's quite tough for some but at least they know that they can leave academic subjects behind at the end of those exams. I agree with you, academic subjects are not for everyone, pretty obvious really.
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I think 16 can be too late for some though. By that time they have spent 2 years failing subjects and ending up with nothing of any use to them. But if you let a kid do some kind of basic engineering course for 2 years, they might come out at 16 with something useful. Then they can either go and try get an apprenticeship or go onto college to take it further with a view to maybe going onto to get a degree.
 
Ross61 said:
Dont let me stop you as I agree with everything you are saying, but what happened to your " this is my one and only post" declaration 6 posts ago? :D
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I know mate. I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in these type of discussions again. Once you start posting, it's hard to stop :D
 
"Why do the left..." They, quite rightly, want equal opportunities for all. Unfortunately, the damage is already done long before the 11+ is anywhere on the horizon.

Daughter #3 teaches in a very poor, inner city area. The poor state many kids arrive at school would make your heart bleed. Some kids even hate Christmas because they won't get properly fed till they return to school in January.

How can a child take advantage of the opportunities if they haven't even taken onboard the right fuel for the day?

It doesn't matter whether there's grammar schools or not, most disadvantaged children won't succeed without intervention long before the 11+.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Are they being held back right now ?

More and more opportunities for kids to go to university than ever before - if the teachers are there then I can't see how a comp school holds kids back regardless of how smart they are

And it does come down to class - richer people can afford private tuition so help their child pass the 11+
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Disagree. We didn't private tutor our son.

He never went to a prep school either.

We are good examples where class does not come into it.

Hard work and determination doesn't cost anything.

BTW our daughter goes to a comprehensive and I'm OK with that too. I just accept that she is not as academic as my son.

A boy that was neck and neck with my son at primary school also sat the exam but did not go through. His grades at GCSE are now worlds apart. If he had got into grammar I am sure that he too would have A's across the board. The grammar has high standards and the teachers , parents, pupils try to be as successful as possible.

Not saying that there aren't bright talented kids in comprehensives of course there are. It's just that the culture is different and it has to cater for all abilities. Therefore there is bound to be some holding back of the brightest pupils.

Rightly or wrongly some grammar schools are have academy status as well so they are funded differently. Better facilities and equipment does help too.
 
sawtooth said:
Disagree. We didn't private tutor our son.

He never went to a prep school either.

We are good examples where class does not come into it.

Hard work and determination doesn't cost anything.

BTW our daughter goes to a comprehensive and I'm OK with that too. I just accept that she is not as academic as my son.

A boy that was neck and neck with my son at primary school also sat the exam but did not go through. His grades at GCSE are now worlds apart. If he had got into grammar I am sure that he too would have A's across the board. The grammar has high standards and the teachers , parents, pupils try to be as successful as possible.

Not saying that there aren't bright talented kids in comprehensives of course there are. It's just that the culture is different and it has to cater for all abilities. Therefore there is bound to be some holding back of the brightest pupils.

Rightly or wrongly some grammar schools are have academy status as well so they are funded differently. Better facilities and equipment does help too.
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How do you know if that other kid hasn't got issues at home or something affecting him or his family that you are unaware of? Saying that getting into grammar school would of ensured he'd of got A's across the board is no more than speculation.
 
sawtooth said:
Disagree. We didn't private tutor our son.

He never went to a prep school either.

We are good examples where class does not come into it.

Hard work and determination doesn't cost anything.

BTW our daughter goes to a comprehensive and I'm OK with that too. I just accept that she is not as academic as my son.

A boy that was neck and neck with my son at primary school also sat the exam but did not go through. His grades at GCSE are now worlds apart. If he had got into grammar I am sure that he too would have A's across the board. The grammar has high standards and the teachers , parents, pupils try to be as successful as possible.

Not saying that there aren't bright talented kids in comprehensives of course there are. It's just that the culture is different and it has to cater for all abilities. Therefore there is bound to be some holding back of the brightest pupils.

Rightly or wrongly some grammar schools are have academy status as well so they are funded differently. Better facilities and equipment does help too.
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What exactly are you disagreeing with ?

If the selection to a better school is determined by passing one exam don't you think that people will more money will spend as much as possible to prepare their child to pass that exam ?

You are one exam - that majority won't be based on your one example

If kids are being held back by comps why are we producing more people with degrees right now than before ?

Why should only certain people get the best teachers teaching them ? All that does is create further them and us divides.

Do you not believe in equal opportunities ? Do you not think that every child should get the chance to be taught by the very best - or should that very best teacher be saved for the bright kids only ?

I'm still struggling to see what the problem is that grammar schools solve ?
 
Got to admit, I know nothing about comprehensives, grammar schools, or academies. Baffles me what the difference is. I'm in favour of streaming, and not in favour of faith schools, but other than that?
 
Hobbit said:
"Why do the left..." They, quite rightly, want equal opportunities for all. Unfortunately, the damage is already done long before the 11+ is anywhere on the horizon.

Daughter #3 teaches in a very poor, inner city area. The poor state many kids arrive at school would make your heart bleed. Some kids even hate Christmas because they won't get properly fed till they return to school in January.

How can a child take advantage of the opportunities if they haven't even taken onboard the right fuel for the day?

It doesn't matter whether there's grammar schools or not, most disadvantaged children won't succeed without intervention long before the 11+.
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Very fair comment, my wife works in a Primary school and says the same things, kids born of abusers, drug addicts, alcoholics etc - mostly they Stan little chance in this world and it does make your heart bleed. I still don't see the most academic kids being denied a grammar education as fair equal opportunity, but I'm sure you were not suggesting that Brian
 
Liverpoolphil said:
What exactly are you disagreeing with ?

If the selection to a better school is determined by passing one exam don't you think that people will more money will spend as much as possible to prepare their child to pass that exam ?

You are one exam - that majority won't be based on your one example

If kids are being held back by comps why are we producing more people with degrees right now than before ?

Why should only certain people get the best teachers teaching them ? All that does is create further them and us divides.

Do you not believe in equal opportunities ? Do you not think that every child should get the chance to be taught by the very best - or should that very best teacher be saved for the bright kids only ?

I'm still struggling to see what the problem is that grammar schools solve ?
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Disagree that it comes down to class and money. If the pupil is bright enough they will go to a grammar it's as simple as that.

Surely we want more kids from working class backgrounds to get into good schools and universities? If they don't have the money for private education then state funded grammar schools is the best option for them.

Once in a grammar there is very little distinction between those with money and those that don't. And the kids from normal backgrounds can compete with the rich kids for places at the best universities. I don't think that you can say the same about most comprehensives.
 
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