What's going to get us to leave the car.

[Ye Olde Boomer]

The norm? Really? None of my grandparents drove and out of the twenty(ish) families, living in the street I grew up in, about three maybe four had access/use of a car... Which, I'd say, was about the norm, over here, for the early 60's... It's my generation that have made car ownership/use the norm...

My grandparents were born in the late 19th Century, arrived here in America at the beginning of the 20th Century,
so of the four, only my maternal grandfather drove...and that was since the 1920s.
Every single other person on both sides of my family drove his/her own car after that, save for one cousin who didn't live to reach sixteen.

So my experience is radically different from yours. I was born shortly after the war and knew of nothing other than people having cars and driving them.
Most of the people I know would tell you basically the same thing.

Now some people who live in huge urban areas like New York City don't drive cars. Many do, but some don't and others only to leave the city.
Los Angeles is our next biggest city, however, and everybody drives there--even within the city--because it's so spread out.

Perhaps the UK is a little different, at least in major urban areas. You have much, much better public transportation than we do for one thing.
I would have imagined that people in suburban and rural areas drive and have for generations, but you'd, of course, know better than I.

I know that the Dutch like bicycles. Most Americans view bicycles as childrens' toys. I've never ridden a bicycle as an adult. I get a kick out of Father Brown riding one on TV.


As for our being doomed, I'm afraid that's inevitable. Every species eventually goes extinct and ours will too. I doubt that the universe will miss us.


One post script. I started driving at sixteen, but I didn't own my own car until I was twenty.
My first two years at university, I routinely walked from one end of Boston to the other. Subway tokens were only 20 cents each then, but I enjoyed walking. There was so much to see.

I never had a weight issue until I was twenty-one. So I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I'm saying that at least over here, everybody's been driving almost forever.

 

[ScienceBoy]

Cut down on city centre parking and raise the prices. They are still not a deterrent.

If not the above they should be for groups of four plus per car and blue badge holders.

A single car carrying one or two people to a city centre car park is not great.

Also there is no reason why we need to deliver stock and carry physical items into and out of city centres by vehicles. There are much better solutions!

IMO the centres should be about experiences, information and social activities not the purchasing of physical items you cannot carry out on a bus in a bag.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I forget how this thread began.

What is it that we don't like about automobiles again?
The main thing that I don't like are the tall head restraints on newer cars. One can't wear one's fedoras.

 

[jim8flog]

I'm going off a farmer we know nearby. Her son was driving a tractor at 16 on the A1. His test was judged by someone else within the farming community who knew him and his family well, he was never going to fail. His mother was appalled. Maybe things have moved on, the bloke is in his mid 30's now.

Saying that, why 16 and not 17 as with other 4 wheeled vehicles?

AS others have said there are limits on weights and sizes and I believe can be driven on a provisional licence as they are single seater vehicles.

 

[jim8flog]

Back in the day, you could drive a three wheeled car on a motorbike licence when you were 16. This covered things like bubble cars and laterly the Bond Bug. Now to drive a three wheeler you need to be 21!

The requirement was that the vehicle did not have a reverse gear. I remember having to get out of my mates bubble car and pushing it when we wanted to reverse.

 

[jim8flog]

I have been sat in front of the log burner going full pelt reading these... kiln dried though if that really makes a difference

When I read about people with log burners I am reminded of the estate I lived on up to the age of 21.

Every house had an open fire and nobody had central heating. The smogs on some winters evenings used to get so bad that you could barely see your hand if you held it out in front of you.

 

[jim8flog]

I would echo comments about Rural communities.

I live about 5 miles outside of the 4th largest town in Somerset (Yeovil)

The bus to and from the town is once every 2 hours none in the evening and none on a Sunday.

The train station is an additional bus ride to 3 miles the other side of Yeovil

Most railway lines and stations were removed by Dr Beeching (there is not even a link between Yeovil and the County Town, Taunton, 25 miles away)

If I want to get to Taunton the first bus leaves at 7.15 the next at 9.30. My son went to college in Taunton and he never got home until after 7 at night. If I want to travel there in 'pensioner times' I only get 2 hours in the town before I have to get the bus back.

On a personal note I often have to transport a mobility type scooter how am I going to do that on a bus.

When it comes to electric vehicles at my age how am I ever going to afford one in the first place and the same goes for my 30+ year old daughter who can only just about afford to keep her 16 year old diesel car running (she could not afford a petrol car as she does nearly 25k a year private mileage).

 

[Sats]

My grandparents were born in the late 19th Century, arrived here in America at the beginning of the 20th Century,
so of the four, only my maternal grandfather drove...and that was since the 1920s.
Every single other person on both sides of my family drove his/her own car after that, save for one cousin who didn't live to reach sixteen.

So my experience is radically different from yours. I was born shortly after the war and knew of nothing other than people having cars and driving them.
Most of the people I know would tell you basically the same thing.

Now some people who live in huge urban areas like New York City don't drive cars. Many do, but some don't and others only to leave the city.
Los Angeles is our next biggest city, however, and everybody drives there--even within the city--because it's so spread out.

Perhaps the UK is a little different, at least in major urban areas. You have much, much better public transportation than we do for one thing.
I would have imagined that people in suburban and rural areas drive and have for generations, but you'd, of course, know better than I.

I know that the Dutch like bicycles. Most Americans view bicycles as childrens' toys. I've never ridden a bicycle as an adult. I get a kick out of Father Brown riding one on TV.


As for our being doomed, I'm afraid that's inevitable. Every species eventually goes extinct and ours will too. I doubt that the universe will miss us.


One post script. I started driving at sixteen, but I didn't own my own car until I was twenty.
My first two years at university, I routinely walked from one end of Boston to the other. Subway tokens were only 20 cents each then, but I enjoyed walking. There was so much to see.

I never had a weight issue until I was twenty-one. So I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I'm saying that at least over here, everybody's been driving almost forever.

I used to live in the states and everybody drives. It was different when I moved to Chicago and Berkley as the transport system was better. When I lived in Chapel Hill you'd get laughed at if you said catch a bus or a cab!

 

[clubchamp98]

i think you have stumbled on the answer.... Piss Power, now wheres that chemistry set and the email address of the patent office

Doc Brown sorted it in Back to the future.

 

[clubchamp98]

Believe the £106Bn+ is to get folk OUT of London quicker to do business with folk in the midlands/north ...

I belive the opposite.

 

[SocketRocket]

Cut down on city centre parking and raise the prices. They are still not a deterrent.

If not the above they should be for groups of four plus per car and blue badge holders.

A single car carrying one or two people to a city centre car park is not great.

Also there is no reason why we need to deliver stock and carry physical items into and out of city centres by vehicles. There are much better solutions!

IMO the centres should be about experiences, information and social activities not the purchasing of physical items you cannot carry out on a bus in a bag.

More roads in Towns and Cities could have street parking removed and the space they take up changed into cycle paths, many roads could become cycle or public transport only. When I see old pictures of Cities like Bristol before WW2 they had extensive electric tram services, maybe they were ahead of their time.

I do understand peoples concerns about commuting from rural areas but why not have a mixed transport system where you drive your car (preferably electric) to one of many park and ride points where you can choose to either use a hire bike or your own bike/ scooter /catch a bus/tram/taxi/boat/ <any other form of environmental friendly transport> to your final destination. If your destination is out of town then happy days go straight there.

As I said previously, these systems may not be available now but non of them are impossible and may even create jobs.

 

[clubchamp98]

More roads in Towns and Cities could have street parking removed and the space they take up changed into cycle paths, many roads could become cycle or public transport only. When I see old pictures of Cities like Bristol before WW2 they had extensive electric tram services, maybe they were ahead of their time.

I do understand peoples concerns about commuting from rural areas but why not have a mixed transport system where you drive your car (preferably electric) to one of many park and ride points where you can choose to either use a hire bike or your own bike/ scooter /catch a bus/tram/taxi/boat/ <any other form of environmental friendly transport> to your final destination. If your destination is out of town then happy days go straight there.

As I said previously, these systems may not be available now but non of them are impossible and may even create jobs.

This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.

 

[SocketRocket]

This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.

OK but read my post again, I suggested a mixed system where cycling is a part. Trams, Busses, Walking etc. The hire bike system seem to work well in a number of cities but we need to clear many roads of parked cars. I know people will find objections to change as what they do now is comfortable for them but they need to be educated into what their lives will be like in the future if we do nothing

 

[clubchamp98]

OK but read my post again, I suggested a mixed system where cycling is a part. Trams, Busses, Walking etc. The hire bike system seem to work well in a number of cities but we need to clear many roads of parked cars. I know people will find objections to change as what they do now is comfortable for them but they need to be educated into what their lives will be like in the future if we do nothing

I did say it could be the answer but I just look at my home city.
There are no cycleways into the city centre except for down by the Mersey.
They refurbished a major road into the city centre a couple of years ago ( edge Lane )
This has the oldest cycle shop in Liverpool on it but they didn’t put a cycle path in.
You take your life in your hands cycling in Liverpool and probably most city’s the roads are shocking.
There is no plan to remedy this as far as I know.
But a business man will get to London 30 mins faster on hs2 for only 106 billion pounds.
That is not joined up thinking imo.

If you clear the roads of parked cars where are they going to put them?
Terraced houses here have no driveways!

 

[USER1999]

Pot holes are a nightmare on a bicycle. Worse again on a scooter.

 

[clubchamp98]

Pot holes are a nightmare on a bicycle. Worse again on a scooter.

My dad was a ambulance driver he told me every day they were picking up people on bikes who swerved to miss a pothole and were hit by a car.
Some were lucky some not!

I really can’t see this changing any time soon.
While government dosnt take roads seriously (except for taxes )nothing is going to change for the general public.

 

[Swango1980]

This does sound like the answer.
But how many people would honestly park their car and get on a bike in the weather we had this week even if that facility was there.
It’s to dangerous to cycle in this country and until that is adressed nothing will change.
You do see cyclists in summer but very few between September and March.
Cycle lanes may sort it a bit but nobody controls the weather.

It's interesting, and probably a reasonable solution. But, I can imagine public authorities feel like they are banging their head against a brick wall. For example:

Urban areas get congestion with too much traffic, people complain
Free parking changed to pay as you park, people complain
Parking spaces removed, facilities added for cyclists and pedestrians, people complain
Park and Ride services added and improved, people complain (about the lack of parking)

So, to address the complaints, Parking prices reduced or removed, more parking made available, then people complain (about too much traffic and air pollution)

Often, it seems to be the same people complaining as well (based on comments, for example, on our local news website). Basically, what is appears people want is as follows:
Ample Parking
Free Parking
Safe cycling facilities
Safe pedestrian facilities, segregated from traffic and clean air
Dual carriageways on every main road (more specifically, at least 2 lanes in either direction)
Frequent bus transport, undelayed

And, if the authorities do commit to spending the little money they have on any improvement scheme, the people want it done in a few hours and want to experience no disruption at all during the building process. An example some love to give currently is "well, if China can build a hospital in 10 days...". They seem to forget that, the UK could build a hospital in 10 days, if it consisted of sticking a bunch of pre-fabricated cabins together, had an abundance of workers who would be willing to work for terrible money and not worry about their own rights or health and safety, didn't have to worry too much about public opinion on how good a job they did and had the land sitting there ready to be built on.

I'd imagine being a public servant can be an incredibly frustrating and unappreciated job.

 

[clubchamp98]

It's interesting, and probably a reasonable solution. But, I can imagine public authorities feel like they are banging their head against a brick wall. For example:

Urban areas get congestion with too much traffic, people complain
Free parking changed to pay as you park, people complain
Parking spaces removed, facilities added for cyclists and pedestrians, people complain
Park and Ride services added and improved, people complain (about the lack of parking)

So, to address the complaints, Parking prices reduced or removed, more parking made available, then people complain (about too much traffic and air pollution)

Often, it seems to be the same people complaining as well (based on comments, for example, on our local news website). Basically, what is appears people want is as follows:
Ample Parking
Free Parking
Safe cycling facilities
Safe pedestrian facilities, segregated from traffic and clean air
Dual carriageways on every main road (more specifically, at least 2 lanes in either direction)
Frequent bus transport, undelayed

And, if the authorities do commit to spending the little money they have on any improvement scheme, the people want it done in a few hours and want to experience no disruption at all during the building process. An example some love to give currently is "well, if China can build a hospital in 10 days...". They seem to forget that, the UK could build a hospital in 10 days, if it consisted of sticking a bunch of pre-fabricated cabins together, had an abundance of workers who would be willing to work for terrible money and not worry about their own rights or health and safety, didn't have to worry too much about public opinion on how good a job they did and had the land sitting there ready to be built on.

I'd imagine being a public servant can be an incredibly frustrating and unappreciated job.

You are correct everyone wants what suits them.
Spot on with the land ,there are to many buildings to close together in this country .
Everything is packed into city’s.
That’s why utilities are under the roads when something needs doing there’s chaos.
But if they want us out of our cars they need to sort an alternative , that’s just not happening here anyway.
Quite the opposite councils are closing amenities due to budget cuts.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I did say it could be the answer but I just look at my home city.
There are no cycleways into the city centre except for down by the Mersey.
They refurbished a major road into the city centre a couple of years ago ( edge Lane )
This has the oldest cycle shop in Liverpool on it but they didn’t put a cycle path in.
You take your life in your hands cycling in Liverpool and probably most city’s the roads are shocking.
There is no plan to remedy this as far as I know.
But a business man will get to London 30 mins faster on hs2 for only 106 billion pounds.

Having driven in Liverpool and also Newcastle I can confirm that cycling in either is a good way to die young. Neither are designed for bikes and nothing other than a major re-design will change that. Painting the odd white line for cyclists to ride in for 200m is not going to make it safe. Cyclists need to be off the roads, on wider pavements with pedestrians, clearly marked who goes where. This is what works in the likes of Germany. At the moment we don't have the space for this so the only answer to ban cars from more roads near the centre of cities and adapt the space they are no longer allowed in. It is then back to park and ride, trams and then limited routes for service vehicles. Hugely unpopular idea but tinkering is not going to make the difference we need to make.

 

[USER1999]

The second hand value of an ICE car will be zip in 2030. So where will they go? Africa is my guess. So some guy in sub Saharan Africa is going to be tooling about in my AMG which he bought for naff all, still polluting, probably driving to the rare metals mine where he works creating fuel for batteries, while I am driving about in an expensive milk float.