What's going to get us to leave the car.

[bobmac]

Will get greener, not are greener.

EVs are greener in use than P&D cars I don't think that's in dispute. It's the factories that make them need improving.
As the electricity used by the factories becomes cleaner/renewable the cars will become cleaner.
There's a factory right now in Cardiff which is powered entirely by a wind turbine, so it is changing.

Skip to 8 mins if your not interested in flexible solar panels.

We use a gas in wind turbines 23,500 times more harmful per gram to the enviroment than CO2,

Data from Vattenfall suggests leakage emissions from Europe’s 100,000 wind turbines were about 900kg of SF6 over the last six years. This is equivalent to 3,525 tonnes of CO2 a year. This includes the release of gases during the reclamation and recycling process. At end-of-life the turbine switchgears are collected and the sulphur hexafluoride gas is reclaimed and reused in new equipment.

By comparison wind energy avoids the emission of 255 million tonnes of CO2 in Europe a year by generating 336TWh of electricity displacing fossil fuels. The SF6 leakage therefore represents around 0.001% of the emissions avoided thanks to wind energy every year.
https://windeurope.org/newsroom/news/wind-energy-and-sf6-in-perspective/

we use cargo ships that emit more CO2 than a million cars and yet we still insist on hammering the motorist.

And what are most of them carrying?
Oil

Not just cargo ships, I watched a C4 Despatches documentary a year or two ago that sent investigators on P&O cruise ships to assess the amount of particulates they gave off i believe it was the Oceana theybwere on and the measurements that gave off as horrendous, based of that x the amount of cruise liners at sea it worked out that the daily emissions of those ships was the equivalent to 1million cars.. Yet the demand for Cruises is going up..

Already thought of

 

[Tashyboy]

Saw top gear the other night, once more it was fantastic. They had the electric Porsche on which they were waxing lyrical about it. One of the massive plus points away from the car was the fact it could charge within 20 mins to a full charge at a supercharger point. However there are four supercharge points in the country.
There in lies one of the the problems. Until the government puts its money where its mouth is and get more charging points built, the uptake will be slow.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Data from Vattenfall suggests leakage emissions from Europe’s 100,000 wind turbines were about 900kg of SF6 over the last six years. This is equivalent to 3,525 tonnes of CO2 a year. This includes the release of gases during the reclamation and recycling process. At end-of-life the turbine switchgears are collected and the sulphur hexafluoride gas is reclaimed and reused in new equipment.

Sorry Bob, but if SF6 is 32,500 times more harmful gram per gram, that 900kg of SF6 equates to 29,250,000 kg or 29,250 tonnes.

Until everyone gets together to give a reasonably accurate life time enviromental impact rating for everything we build and make (and thats a from scratch rating including transport from the very very start to bin at end of life) it is going to be very hard to really trust vested parties.
Telling me the way forward re cars is electric is easy, but prove to me and everyone else that the whole thing is better and you might have an easier time (not neccessarily you...the lobby groups and vested parties). Prove to me/us that the elements required for the batteries creation/disposal is better than anything else, amongst everything in them.
Ultimately, I suspect my request is an impossible ask, and even if it were I doubt the information wouldnt be tainted by vested parties.

 

[bobmac]

Sorry Bob, but if SF6 is 32,500 times more harmful gram per gram, that 900kg of SF6 equates to 29,250,000 kg or 29,250 tonnes.

900kg over a 6 year period is 150 kg per year.
Multiply that by 23,500 kg of carbon dioxide (according to most recent estimates) is 3,525,000kg or 3,885 tons unless my arithmetic is wrong

 

[Grant85]

Over the past 20 years I think we have gotten further away from using the car for fewer journeys.

Increasing numbers of housing developments built on the outskirts of towns and cities with no 'services' such as shops, restaurants built into these areas. Very very unlikely that these areas are served with railway stations and absolutely no intention of putting in that infrastructure.

Similar with workplaces as increasing numbers of workplaces are built or relocated away from town and city centres.

And retail developments with large purpose built stores and car parking for a few hundred cars have been pro-actively approved by local authorities, ripping the heart out of town centres. Ok, if that's the way it's going - but as well as regenerating the outskirts, you have to fix or re-designate the town centres. Not leave them to rot with empty units and shutters down.

It's ok if you live in certain spots in bigger cities and work in the city centre, but in Glasgow for instance, we lived in the southside inside the city boundary (4 miles from the city centre). My wife works at the 'super hospital' which is on the same side of town. But to take public transport it would have meant a journey of around 1 hour, and relying on 2 separate buses being on time. But at 0700 it took 12 minutes in the car. In reality, it's not exactly a tough decision to make.

I work in the city centre, and even if I could park for free, it still made a lot of sense to get the bus.

Now we've moved out a bit, I still have a good train service to the city centre, but my wife would now be faced with a train journey into central, then a bus journey out to the hospital. Probably taking well over an hour, while it takes around 18 minutes by car.

 

[patricks148]

Over the past 20 years I think we have gotten further away from using the car for fewer journeys.

Increasing numbers of housing developments built on the outskirts of towns and cities with no 'services' such as shops, restaurants built into these areas. Very very unlikely that these areas are served with railway stations and absolutely no intention of putting in that infrastructure.

Similar with workplaces as increasing numbers of workplaces are built or relocated away from town and city centres.

And retail developments with large purpose built stores and car parking for a few hundred cars have been pro-actively approved by local authorities, ripping the heart out of town centres. Ok, if that's the way it's going - but as well as regenerating the outskirts, you have to fix or re-designate the town centres. Not leave them to rot with empty units and shutters down.

It's ok if you live in certain spots in bigger cities and work in the city centre, but in Glasgow for instance, we lived in the southside inside the city boundary (4 miles from the city centre). My wife works at the 'super hospital' which is on the same side of town. But to take public transport it would have meant a journey of around 1 hour, and relying on 2 separate buses being on time. But at 0700 it took 12 minutes in the car. In reality, it's not exactly a tough decision to make.

I work in the city centre, and even if I could park for free, it still made a lot of sense to get the bus.

Now we've moved out a bit, I still have a good train service to the city centre, but my wife would now be faced with a train journey into central, then a bus journey out to the hospital. Probably taking well over an hour, while it takes around 18 minutes by car.

Sneck a case in point, more and more housing out of town with no thoughts of Infrastructure, shops, schools ect. let alone any bus serv. They moved the UHI out of town and if you want to get a bus to the hosp you can't get on it as its already full of Students at peak times. plenty of instances of old people left a bus stops in the local press.

hardly anyone walks up here, Council car park is now so full it spills out into the surrounding streets and some of these live 10 mins away at most

 

[Grant85]

Sneck a case in point, more and more housing out of town with no thoughts of Infrastructure, shops, schools ect. let alone any bus serv. They moved the UHI out of town and if you want to get a bus to the hosp you can't get on it as its already full of Students at peak times. plenty of instances of old people left a bus stops in the local press.

hardly anyone walks up here, Council car park is now so full it spills out into the surrounding streets and some of these live 10 mins away at most

Yes - and this trend of the last 2 decades to move things out of town while urban areas are full or disused will not be easily reversed.

So my guess is the more likely / practical solution is to press on with electric vehicles and accept that people will always want / value the convenience of their own car. The technology in these will improve to the point they will become much more practical. It may be we have 2 decades of hybrids being the biggest sellers, but in our lifetimes we'll see a full transition.

Air travel is a different matter and it seems we are not close to a realistic solution.

 

[clubchamp98]

The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.

 

[Wolf]

Wolf I’ll just use your post to reply to if you don’t mind, although we’ve all got our own version of this scenario where our live/work/life structure doesn’t easily equal the ‘leave the car’ notion from the OP

So notwithstanding some revolutionary new environmentally friendly form of public/private transport getting rolled out tomorrow, we should also look at the other factors in the scenario that make public transport unviable as an option for so many of us

Is it really down to the public transport on offer (has it really regressed in the last 30 years and if so is any regression due more to people moving to cars and using the public services less or has it in fact expanded but only in areas where it is financially viable)

Is it simply that we live in the wrong place for the work we do
Is it because we work in the wrong place for where we live
Is it because we work at the wrong time of day for the available public transport
Did we choose to live and work where we do at a time we do knowing we would have a dependency on a petrol car/s (& if we really cared then why would we have made such choices)

And because I don’t see us giving up any of these choices I think we need to look at the hours that society is active and while there’s always been some elements of society that work shifts etc these were typically essential (or at least far more essential than they are now) but each day we’re moving closer to a 24 hour world where its seems its necessary for shelf stackers in asda to work night shifts that are incompatible with public transport meaning a car is needed for jobs paying minimum wage, but this surely is not the fault of public transport? (& if you’ll permit me to also give the example of 24 hour gyms, is this really the fault of public transport that as a society we appear to need a gym to be accessible at 5am?)

So if we’re really moving to a 24 hour world then it makes sense to radically speed up this process across all areas of work & society so that 9-5 is no longer the default and we can fully utilize the resources we've got and at the same time allowing congestion to be reduced, productivity increased and public transport to be run 24hrs making it more productive (with plenty passengers looking to use it) and while I don’t think we’ll get to a point where the world runs 2 or 3 equal shifts there is a helluva lot of unused productivity to be gained by getting people spread through a day especially as they commute & bring an end to blocked roads at rush hour

It can’t hope to eliminate all scenarios where people need a car but it can sure lessen/spread the load on the roads which will inevitably make it cleaner until such time we're ready to replace the car with something else

To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable.

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised.

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages.

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for forum discussion reasons.

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue.

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable.

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised.

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages.

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for forum discussion reasons.

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue.

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.

People's choice of location to leave can be key. Where public transport is poor a car is essential.

I am very lucky. I could choose to live near a tube station. 5 min drive to my parents . 20 min drive to her parents now they have moved. Can bus to mine in 20 mins ISH

Work wise it's driveable and I wanted the option of train incase I ever lost my licence again (due to my bipolar there was a time I wasn't allowed to drive so always have that in my mind)

Not everyone is that lucky tho to have options

Seems every problem in life comes back to house prices! If housing cost less people could live closer to work or work closer to home....so really the humble house market is the problem

 

[bobmac]

The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.

I agree, people need a cheap, clean, comfortable alternative to get them out of their cars.
In cities it would be easier than in the countryside so if the cars, buses, trucks etc have to be there, it will help to make them cleaner.
As for charging.......
In 2011, there were just over 5,000 charging points.
As of Autumn 2019 there were 26,500
Today there are 30,450
And I quote Carmagazine.........

The gap between fossil fuels and electric car chargers is narrowing at a dramatic rate...

This won't happen overnight, it will take years but people will always want/need cars and electric is the clean, cheap renewable future.
The sun, wind and waves are not going to run out in the next 40-50 years, oil and gas will (according to some sources).

 

[Grant85]

The main problem as I see it .
Is the Government’s plans for local infrastructure is in tatters and has been for donkeys years.
Both governments over the last 50 yrs have centralised everything into London.
Hs2 is just another one. It’s not a northern powerhouse it’s just making everywhere else a suburb of London.

To many people work to far from home now inc school kids.
So a car is nessesary.
Not long ago government were pushing diesel cars ,so opinions of experts now is low imo.
Would you buy a car if there were hardly any petrol stations?
That’s the problem with EV at the moment , if you can charge at home fine but anywhere else ??
There are not many by me , two in the hospital but can’t think of anymore locally.

The charging infrastructure will come. As I said, hybrids are where it's at and even a battery with capacity of under 50 miles can probably cope with 80% to 90% of journeys for a lot of school runs / shopping / commuting etc.

And regards local infrastrucure, where I come from in Greenock - there was this big shopping mall, done really well in the late 80s / early 90s. Glass roof, loads of mixed size retail units, dry and comfortable etc. Big M&S, Littlewoods (which became a primark), lots of other fashion, phone, cafes etc.

Fast forward 25 years and the same local authority gave the go ahead for a big retail development in Port Glasgow, the next town along, but much closer to the Motorway. Big Tesco, B&Q, M&S, TK Maxx, Costa, MacDonalds etc. Now the Greenock mall sits half empty, likely costing the owners a fortune.

The owners put a plan together to turn a big section of it into office space and accommodation and condense the retail units at one end.

What happened? -The council knocked back the plan saying they were committed to retail use. Absolutely mental. Even if you let small business rent for free, there is just not enough footfall to sustain profitable retail in probably 60 or so units.

 

[Slab]

To answer those points in bold Slab.. Its a little simplistic to make them as statements imo

It's not as simple as living where you work if you live in a rural area you have to go into towns for work. Simple answer woukd be move into town but that in many cases isn't affordable.

People can only work at times stipulated by employers so choice in that area is minimised.

Choosing to work at times when only public transport is available is an option i agree, but then you have to factor in jobs available and the wages paid for those roles. In our area the better paid jobs tend to sit outside those times, unless you want minimum wages.

I hand on heart i chose where i live knowing id have a dependent requirement for a car, but that choice was made on cost to me and my family. But that involves many personal not for forum discussion reasons.

Your example of 24hr gyms is a relatively poor one, i get the reason you used it but Pure gym, Gym Group & Anytime fitness who are the groups that run them in UK are all town/City centre based where transport links are viable at all times and are based areas that are walkable. They also don't have staff manning them between 9pm & 7am. I personally don't see the need for a gym or a supermarket to be 24hrs anyway even for shift workers but that's a separate issue.

I agree lots needs to be changed at individual, business level etc. People may think im against reducing cars on this thread im really not, I've even said my family have things set in motion to change our usage but ita not as simple as some people think that already live in large population areas with decent transport links or more disposable income.

I think you'd agree that the only folks in rural areas were folks born in rural areas who worked in rural areas, unless they made a choice to go to town to seek different work. Its us that’s changed our behaviour

If & when the population grew sufficiently in a rural area it ceased to be a rural area as businesses and jobs also grew in-line with the increase in population (a slow and graduated process)

The problem is that folks born in towns have been forced to move to rural areas due to stupid house prices in towns which in turn put unrealistic expectations on an inadequate public transport system in rural areas that wasn’t designed for the extra 250/500/1000 homes thrown up in xyz village that now doesn't have a gradual increase in population or associated local business growth

Too many folks have been allowed to line their pockets in both the public & private sectors from mass house building projects in rural areas instead of them being mandated to invest in adequate amenities and transport links back to town

 

[Slab]

People's choice of location to leave can be key. Where public transport is poor a car is essential.

I am very lucky. I could choose to live near a tube station. 5 min drive to my parents . 20 min drive to her parents now they have moved. Can bus to mine in 20 mins ISH

Work wise it's driveable and I wanted the option of train incase I ever lost my licence again (due to my bipolar there was a time I wasn't allowed to drive so always have that in my mind)

Not everyone is that lucky tho to have options

Seems every problem in life comes back to house prices! If housing cost less people could live closer to work or work closer to home....so really the humble house market is the problem

Yup, as I've just posted too, it all started to go wrong selling the council housing stock and not replacing it

 

[Wolf]

I think you'd agree that the only folks in rural areas were folks born in rural areas who worked in rural areas, unless they made a choice to go to town to seek different work. Its us that’s changed our behaviour

If & when the population grew sufficiently in a rural area it ceased to be a rural area as businesses and jobs also grew in-line with the increase in population (a slow and graduated process)

The problem is that folks born in towns have been forced to move to rural areas due to stupid house prices in towns which in turn put unrealistic expectations on an inadequate public transport system in rural areas that wasn’t designed for the extra 250/500/1000 homes thrown up in xyz village that now doesn't have a gradual increase in population or associated local business growth

Too many folks have been allowed to line their pockets in both the public & private sectors from mass house building projects in rural areas instead of them being mandated to invest in adequate amenities and transport links back to town

Totally do agree with this post Slab, its to simple to say people should move because you and Paul both nailed it in that the root cause of it is actually simple it is the cost of housing in well linked areas that forced people out into more rural areas thus creating a dilemma.

The boom in out of town housing made it more affordable to actually live within people's means, however the governments and developers didn't get together and look at what can be done to improve access into towns beyond use of cars. That's one of the biggest issues that needs solving before simply telling people they should work different times or in different fields. Work isn't an easy thing to get for many people especially not work that actually covers the cost of living.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Totally do agree with this post Slab, its to simple to say people should move because you and Paul both nailed it in that the root cause of it is actually simple it is the cost of housing in well linked areas that forced people out into more rural areas thus creating a dilemma.

The boom in out of town housing made it more affordable to actually live within people's means, however the governments and developers didn't get together and look at what can be done to improve access into towns beyond use of cars. That's one of the biggest issues that needs solving before simply telling people they should work different times or in different fields. Work isn't an easy thing to get for many people especially not work that actually covers the cost of living.

The house prices are just crazy

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop

 

[Wolf]

The house prices are just crazy

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop

That last sentence is spot on for me. We lived in an average to small size 3 bed terraced house in Kent. But the cost of living there in a town where there was all the major amenities, rail Links to London, could easily get by with 1 car etc was simply to costly our disposable income each month was in the tens of pounds sum literally if we were lucky. I didn't have a golf membership or any hobbies outside the gym and I got that free as part of perks of the job. We couldn't afford to relocate anywhere in the south east so moved to Lincoln which had added benefit for Mrs Wolf being closer to her mum (sore point now ?)

We sold our house, moved all way up here into a more rural area and ended up with a 4 bed detached house, double garage, lots of other extras to but more than halved our mortgage, others bills and outgoings and are financially more secure despite taking a pay cut as well. We're not alone in that I speak to so many people here that have done the same thing.. Its only now does that put us in position to afford to be able to make more viable energy choices. If we still lived in city/town areas we'd be in no position to make these changes.

 

[Slab]

The house prices are just crazy

We managed to buy in 2014 so it wasn't a crazy year .. in reality we got a bargain for what we got

The house has increased in value by 35% in that time ... If I had done nothing to it I could sell now and I'd of made a mint

I decided to spend 20% of the original value on extending it meaning it's value from original is 50% , again this is crazy!!!

So my 20% investment I'd of made back plus 50% of it again

That is just stupid

It's pricing everyone out the blooming market

Anyone who's on the ladder is fine it seems .. how Is that fair? (Another argument)

But reduce the prices and watch our carbon foot print drop

The UK population has grown by 12 million in 50 years. That’s ave of 240k people a year!

Now you’d think any competent government (even ones that change political parties every so often) could plan a change in housing infrastructure to cope with a population growth of 240k a year, after all 240k is not even a ½ of 1% growth but not in the UK

So we can be sure it is not an unnatural rise in population V shortage of housing stock that has caused the stupid rise in house prices, nationwide you’re only talking about building 80k units per year for families of 3… but now reports say that 340,000 houses are needed every year for 10 years just in England, just to catch up!

Now the number of cars have trebled in that same period from 12m to 34m by 2010, the government has milked an enormous cashpot from this and also from selling the same house several times over, yet up & down the country the same problem exists that its is quicker, cheaper and easier to use a car to commute from just a few miles out of town than it is to use other transport

So no, unfortunately we won’t be getting folks out of their cars anytime soon


edit, got a couple of sums wrong so deleted and re-posted

 

[MegaSteve]

Car ownership has been the norm for one hundred years, particularly for those who don't live in major cities. How far back are you willing to regress?

The norm? Really? None of my grandparents drove and out of the twenty(ish) families, living in the street I grew up in, about three maybe four had access/use of a car... Which, I'd say, was about the norm, over here, for the early 60's... It's my generation that have made car ownership/use the norm...

 

[MegaSteve]

The "old ways" will never return. People have been encouraged that mobility is good. Kids are dispatched all around the country because university life is "essential". Local factories and manufacturing has all gone, and those that do exist aren't employing locals becasue the jobs are beneath them. We therefore travel distances to work, wives work because they need to now so cars are essential to travel those miles to get to and from work.
There is no utopia we will find, and returning to a life of the 50's or 60's won't happen.

Then we are doomed...