What would you have done/what should I have done?

[Doon frae Troon]

Louise this is a bit like the Faldo/Lyle tape issue. If Nick had not called the penalty he could have been disqualified for agreeing to break the rules of golf.
Your 8 handicapper has put you in a difficult position. I would ask the captain to clarify the situation although as a new member it would probably be best to forget it and put it down to experience.

 

[chrisd]

So just for the record , on the next hole she chips in to a couple of inches with her 3rd shot , no question a dead cert gimme , picks the ball up & signs for a 4 , no harm done , no real advantage gained as we agree it would have been a 4 .. is that ok aswell ?

Certainly not and, for me, a completely different matter

I took the view that if she thought the sign to be an immovable object (which is what she claimed) then she would obtain relief - did she have to try and pull it out to see if it would move or not? given that, either way, she would have got relief I felt that I wouldn't try to penalise her if it were me, as it might be difficult to prove whether is was moveable or not.

Your example is a clear cut breach of the rules

 

[duncan mackie]

I will keep posting this as long as such queries keep arriving!

A golfer needs to be fully aware of 3 rules in golf to avoid any unpleasantness or problems on the course - just 3........

1. the etiquette section
2. in matchplay rule 2-5
3. in stroke play rule 3-3

that's it.

applied to this situation you, as marker and felow competitor 'aren't sure' about the other player's actions. You have a responsibility to protect the interests of the field (including but not limited to you!) but it's not for you to make a decision! politely point out that you will have to refer it to the committee for a decision before signing the card and suggest the other player might like to play a second ball under 3-3 from the position it was in before dropping, this time removing the sign.

as long as this is done before she has played her dropped ball it's fine - because you will have learnt all of 3-3 you will also remid her to confirm which ball she wishes to count and, as possibly a slight complication in this case because she has moved her ball in play already, if she then says 'the one where I move the sign and play from the same spot' you might point out that this one will include a penalty shot under 18-2 in it's total

the whole issue of what the ruling is and the score etc is moved to the correct area (the committee) and the player doesn't end up DQ'd or with a 2 shot penalty, which is what would have happened on the basis of what's been posted here if you had simply referred it to the committee on the basis of the players actions alone (prior to signing the card) as the general penalty under rule 18-2, because the ball wasn't replaced.

Finally, and just to confirm the overall situation, you might like to read 18-2a/4 Ball Lifted and Dropped Away from Movable Obstruction ....... it's been done many times!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Might be worth asking the captain for a ruling as a hypothetical scenario. I don't think you can do anything at this stage accept learn and move on. In future, I think you need to be a bit more forceful if you think something is wrong. If you and your partner disagree, play two balls, one from where it lies and one from the "free drop" and let the committee decide

 

[duncan mackie]

Might be worth asking the captain for a ruling as a hypothetical scenario. I don't think you can do anything at this stage accept learn and move on. In future, I think you need to be a bit more forceful if you think something is wrong. If you and your partner disagree, play two balls, one from where it lies and one from the "free drop" and let the committee decide

sorry - completely disagree. the 'hypothetical ruling' is unnecessary because there is a rule as I referenced above - word for word.

movable obstructions are clearly defined in the rules "An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage."

the local rules will clearly state if any movable obstructions are defined as immovable by the committee - if they don't there aren't!

any discussion with any member of the committee about 'uncertainty in a previous competition' would probably result in a brief (and I hope polite) lecture about the responsibility of the marker to raise such questions before signing a card!
I wouldn't even point out the error to the other player in the OP situation, even as an effort to avoid her doing it again - she should have gone off and looked it up herself!

 

[chrisd]

sorry - completely disagree. the 'hypothetical ruling' is unnecessary because there is a rule as I referenced above - word for word.

movable obstructions are clearly defined in the rules "An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage."

the local rules will clearly state if any movable obstructions are defined as immovable by the committee - if they don't there aren't!

any discussion with any member of the committee about 'uncertainty in a previous competition' would probably result in a brief (and I hope polite) lecture about the responsibility of the marker to raise such questions before signing a card!
I wouldn't even point out the error to the other player in the OP situation, even as an effort to avoid her doing it again - she should have gone off and looked it up herself!

One question Duncan. In the OP we were told that the player thought it was a fixed sign, so, is it a matter of fact whether it's moveable or not ?

I remember the Tiger Woods (?) incident where he got several people to help move a giant boulder where a lone golfer couldn't have. So, had the player not been able to pull it out would she have been ok to call it an immovable abstruction?

 

[louise_a]

wow thanks for all the replies everyone. To clarify she did have a slightly easier shot when she dropped and the original position would have meant going over the corner of a bunker but the dropped ball took the bunker out of direct line to the pin.
Interestly on the previous hole, I had called her over as I wanted relief from casual water. I wanted to drop on side but she insisted I drop the other side of the water as it was (in my opinion quesionablly nearer)
As the place she wanted me to drop had a tree right in front of my shot I chose to play from the water. one time she wanted relief she just shouted over, casual water and dropepd the ball.

 

[pbrown7582]

Obviously knows the rules sounds a bit like she applies them to suit!

Or your just getting too competitive Louise.

 

[muttleee]

Interestly on the previous hole, I had called her over as I wanted relief from casual water. I wanted to drop on side but she insisted I drop the other side of the water as it was (in my opinion quesionablly nearer)
As the place she wanted me to drop had a tree right in front of my shot I chose to play from the water. one time she wanted relief she just shouted over, casual water and dropepd the ball.

In that case you should apply the same standards to her that she applies to you.

 

[JezzE]

Might be worth asking the captain for a ruling as a hypothetical scenario.

You might as well ask the cat at some clubs, such is the captain's not always comprehensive knowledge of the rules.

In fact, at my first club I remember the captain coming in after a good round and pressuring the young assistant pro into allowing him to sign the competition book after his round as he'd had a good score!

Hmmm...

 

[pbrown7582]

You might as well ask the cat at some clubs, such is the captain's not always comprehensive knowledge of the rules.

In fact, at my first club I remember the captain coming in after a good round and pressuring the young assistant pro into allowing him to sign the competition book after his round as he'd had a good score!

Hmmm...

Captains privilege!!??

 

[rosecott]

I thought that marking the ball prior to a drop was only 'recommended' and not required. Most likely wrong though

No - correct, but you need to be able to demonstrate that your drop is indeed within NPR + 1 clublength. It is prudent, however, to go through the process of marking the ball, marking the NPR and marking the 1 clublength from the NPR. That way there is no question of not observing the rule.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

sorry - completely disagree. the 'hypothetical ruling' is unnecessary because there is a rule as I referenced above - word for word.

movable obstructions are clearly defined in the rules "An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage."

the local rules will clearly state if any movable obstructions are defined as immovable by the committee - if they don't there aren't!

any discussion with any member of the committee about 'uncertainty in a previous competition' would probably result in a brief (and I hope polite) lecture about the responsibility of the marker to raise such questions before signing a card!
I wouldn't even point out the error to the other player in the OP situation, even as an effort to avoid her doing it again - she should have gone off and looked it up herself!

Jeez get off your high horse. The OP was put in a position she didn't know how to handle and was asking advice. There is no clarity on whether it was fixed or not or whether there is a local rule.

My point is that in such a scenario, surely its easiet to play both balls and then get a ruling. As for asking for a ruling I only said hypotetical so that names weren't dragged into it. If you don't ask you never improve your knowledge

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Two golden rules to observe if/when taking any kind of drop.

1) ALWAYS mark your ball BEFORE touching it.

2) NEVER pick it up before discussing what you intend to do with your opponent/playing partners.

 

[SocketRocket]

So just for the record , on the next hole she chips in to a couple of inches with her 3rd shot , no question a dead cert gimme , picks the ball up & signs for a 4 , no harm done , no real advantage gained as we agree it would have been a 4 .. is that ok aswell ?

How can she sign for a 4? Her marker has her card, she can only call a 4 which you either accept or not. Same situation really.

 

[Heidi]

How can she sign for a 4? Her marker has her card, she can only call a 4 which you either accept or not. Same situation really.

i thought the wee ball had to go into the wee hole??? how can you have a 4 if its not in?? what am i missing here?

 

[bladeplayer]

.

Did she get any real advantage from dropping the ball? If the lie was similar then I guess I would have let it go.

How can she sign for a 4? Her marker has her card, she can only call a 4 which you either accept or not. Same situation really.

your missing my point , my apologies i may not have explained it properly, in you post you said
"Did she get any real advantage from dropping the ball? If the lie was similar then I guess I would have let it go"

in the question i asked it was a sure fire 4 so you give it to her , did she gain any advantage , no its still a 4 ..

Its a rule she has to putt out , its also a rule she has to take a proper drop , its not at another players discression to decide if she gained an advantage or not .. when GMacs ball moved on the fairway , he asked his caddy , the opposition & the tv crew did it move , they said they didnt see it . the ball moved a fraction , he gained no advantage what so ever but was still penalised when it was checked , because rules are not discresionary ..
If you & I are playing & we have a rules decision , we chat about it and decide the best course of action , if afterwards we find out we were wrong then the offender is disqualified , because its not up to us ..

 

[bladeplayer]

i thought the wee ball had to go into the wee hole??? how can you have a 4 if its not in?? what am i missing here?

What im saying or trying to get across was a reply to an earlier post wher it was mentioned if she gained no real advantage it would be let go ,
you are 100% correct regarding the ball having to go in the hole , its a rule , the same as having to take a drop properly is a rule , & both have to be treated the same ..

 

[SocketRocket]

i thought the wee ball had to go into the wee hole??? how can you have a 4 if its not in?? what am i missing here?

That's correct. I was confusing it with matchplay.

 

[USER1999]

Has the op checked for local rules on her notice board? At my club the rules for moveable obstructions around the greens changes through the year, according to winter rules. In the winter, it's a compulsory drop if the obstruction interferes with your swing. In the summer, you can move the obstruction.

This causes no end of confusion.