Too many clubs in the bag?

[WGCRider]

I had a practice club in my bag today and my opponent (in a friendly way) suggested that as I had too many clubs I should have lost each hole I had carried it. The club is question is a DST compressor. It has a curved shaft so would be an illegal club anyway and there really would be no reason to want to use it in a round. His view was that a club is a club and just cause it's illegal it wouldn't matter. My view was that it would no different to carrying alignment sticks in your bag during a round - they're there but I'm not using them. Who is right?

 

[apj0524]

He is

 

[Steven Rules]

Rule 4.1a says there is no penalty for merely having (but not making a stroke with) a non-conforming club but such a club still counts towards the 14-club limit in Rule 4.1b(1).

Also, to clarify, there is a two hole limit on the number of penalties applied for exceeding the 14-club limit. (On a technicality, in match play this is a match adjustment penalty – it is not the same as a loss of hole penalty.) Rule 4.1b

 

[WGCRider]

Rule 4.1a says there is no penalty for merely having (but not making a stroke with) a non-conforming club but such a club still counts towards the 14-club limit in Rule 4.1b(1).

Also, to clarify, there is a two hole limit on the number of penalties applied for exceeding the 14-club limit. (On a technicality, in match play this is a match adjustment penalty – it is not the same as a loss of hole penalty.) Rule 4.1b

I've just read that, but doesn't 4.1c mean I can indicate by my actions that I've taken the club out of play? All the clubs in my bag are in order and this one is in the umbrella hole. (being honest this was not my intention - I didn't think it counted as club any more than a toy club would count)

This does all seem counter intuitive. I've just noticed on TV Rory's caddy has a Bushnell attached to his bag even thought he is not allowed to use it.

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes you can take it out of play but any holes prior to that incur a penalty - to a maximum of two holes.

The way I interpreted your original post, you hadn't taken it out of play. Indeed, you had thought it was quite ok to have it in there.

It seems to me you didn't clearly indicate or declare it to your opponent or take some other clear action as required by 4 1c.

 

[salfordlad]

Yes you can take it out of play but any holes prior to that incur a penalty - to a maximum of two holes.

The way I interpreted your original post, you hadn't taken it out of play. Indeed, you had thought it was quite ok to have it in there.

It seems to me you didn't clearly indicate or declare it to your opponent or take some other clear action as required by 4 1c.

And to add - see the last para of 4.1c(2). If you deliberately get to the first tee with more than 14 clubs and do not leave the excess clubs behind before starting, you cannot use the option of taking a club out of play before starting by advising others/turning it upside down in the bag, etc. In that circumstance, only leaving the excess club behind gets you out of penalty.

 

[nickjdavis]

And to add - see the last para of 4.1c(2). If you deliberately get to the first tee with more than 14 clubs and do not leave the excess clubs behind before starting, you cannot use the option of taking a club out of play before starting by advising others/turning it upside down in the bag, etc. In that circumstance, only leaving the excess club behind gets you out of penalty.

...and how do you determine if a player has deliberately, as opposed to absent mindedly, bought more than 14 clubs to the first tee with him?

 

[salfordlad]

...and how do you determine if a player has deliberately, as opposed to absent mindedly, bought more than 14 clubs to the first tee with him?

The distinction the rule draws is accidental versus deliberate. 'Absent mindedly' is not something the rule discussed. IMO, if you deliberately put the offending club in your bag at some time previous and forget it was there, head to the tee, then you are not in an accidental world. But you may wish to explore that further with the R&A - I understand they are the ones that are keen on this rule.

 

[nickjdavis]

The distinction the rule draws is accidental versus deliberate. 'Absent mindedly' is not something the rule discussed. IMO, if you deliberately put the offending club in your bag at some time previous and forget it was there, head to the tee, then you are not in an accidental world. But you may wish to explore that further with the R&A - I understand they are the ones that are keen on this rule.

accidental/absent minded/forgetfull are the same thing for the purposes of my question....we've all been down the range trying out a new club and have put said club in the bag, in the boot of the car, after finishing the session, and have the potential to forget its there when we next pull the bag out of the boot to go and play.

It seems to me that if there is a 15th club in your bag then it can only have gotten there by a conscious deliberate action on your part no matter how many hours/days/weeks previously it may have happened, and the bold bit of your reply will apply in every instance. I cannot therefore see how a player could ever take a club out of play ahead of his round as described in 4.1c(2) without having to leave it behind on the tee....unless he claimed that someone else put the club in his bag.

I will politely decline taking this up with the R&A....I can see only quagmires and ever decreasing circles swallowing me up.

 

[salfordlad]

accidental/absent minded/forgetfull are the same thing for the purposes of my question....we've all been down the range trying out a new club and have put said club in the bag, in the boot of the car, after finishing the session, and have the potential to forget its there when we next pull the bag out of the boot to go and play.

It seems to me that if there is a 15th club in your bag then it can only have gotten there by a conscious deliberate action on your part no matter how many hours/days/weeks previously it may have happened, and the bold bit of your reply will apply in every instance. I cannot therefore see how a player could ever take a club out of play ahead of his round as described in 4.1c(2) without having to leave it behind on the tee....unless he claimed that someone else put the club in his bag.

I will politely decline taking this up with the R&A....I can see only quagmires and ever decreasing circles swallowing me up.

I think there are places where the rule book could be improved by providing examples to clarify how RBs want certain things applied. This is a prime candidate.

 

[Jason.H]

Check your bag before the round. Ian Woosnam would tell you the same.

 

[WGCRider]

Yes you can take it out of play but any holes prior to that incur a penalty - to a maximum of two holes.

The way I interpreted your original post, you hadn't taken it out of play. Indeed, you had thought it was quite ok to have it in there.

It seems to me you didn't clearly indicate or declare it to your opponent or take some other clear action as required by 4 1c.

I think what I struggling with is how is this defined as a club to begin with? It is a training aid. 4.3 makes it clear that I cannot use a training aid in the round. If someone had their "orange whip" in their bag during the round would they also be breaking rule 4.1b?

 

[Alan Clifford]

When is a club not a club? When is a "not a club" a club. How can a non-conforming "club" be a club? It's a complete contradiction. Why isn't a walking stick in your bag a non-conforming "club". I have one and it looks like a club so it could be a non-conforming "club" or a "not a club".

Golf logic and terminology is wonderful. Reminds me of years ago before WHS, when having a US style handicap, every round had to be submitted for handicap. "But what about practice rounds?" I asked the USGA. The reply was "There is no such thing as a practice round". I took that to mean that I had to declare beforehand that I was not playing an actual "round" of golf but merely practicing golf!

Same with my walking stick. It looks like a club but is not a club. Same with the non-conforming "club". It looks like a club but is not a club.