Today's HOC Vote

Liverpoolphil said:
The HoC gave approval for UK to join in with coalition effort by joining in with the air strikers and targeting strategic targets designed to reduce the capability of ISIS

Which is exactly what they are doing

The vote wasn't about whether they are allowed to use specific weaponary for goodness sake
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Well there was a lot of justification for the UK joining the action going on around the fact that we could do more precise stuff that others couldn't do, and as a result UK action was less likely to be the cause of deaths of civilians. When from what you say all the stuff around Brimstone was actually rather irrelevant as we're going to be bombing using our less accurate Paveway bombs - that US has. OK - understood. So let's I think just be clear and not pretend otherwise - that UK action will result in innocent civilian deaths - especially when bombing 'facilities' and other 'strategic/tactical' targets - which we are going to be doing.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Well there was a lot of justification for the UK joining the action going on around the fact that we could do more precise stuff that others couldn't do, and as a result UK action was less likely to be the cause of deaths of civilians. When from what you say all the stuff around Brimstone was actually rather irrelevant as we're going to be bombing using our less accurate Paveway bombs - that US has. OK - understood. So let's I think just be clear and not pretend otherwise - that UK action will result in innocent civilian deaths - especially when bombing 'facilities' and other 'strategic/tactical' targets - which we are going to be doing.
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Aren't we going to be using Paveway against targets such as oilfields and tanker convoys where there are not likely to be civilians in the vicinity that could be harmed. We will then be using Brimstone to take out individual vehicles and selected targets in more populated areas. And if that isn't the case then why not as that would make sense to me. No point using a precision missile that can be posted up the exhaust pipe of a car if you can use a standard missile on an oilfield in the middle of nowhere.
 
ColchesterFC said:
Aren't we going to be using Paveway against targets such as oilfields and tanker convoys where there are not likely to be civilians in the vicinity that could be harmed. We will then be using Brimstone to take out individual vehicles and selected targets in more populated areas. And if that isn't the case then why not as that would make sense to me. No point using a precision missile that can be posted up the exhaust pipe of a car if you can use a standard missile on an oilfield in the middle of nowhere.
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The logic is fine - though I can't imagine there are that many targets not already bombed by US or France that require UK involvement -- and those that are left or new ones don't require UK involvement. Anyway - we are going to be guilty of the killing of innocent civilians - actually or by association.

BTW - Anyone know how many Brimstone missiles we have in stock and how long it takes to manufacture one? As we don't know what defines a successful 'war' and completion of objectives - we could be there for quite some time - and I'm thinking we are going to run short sooner rather than later.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
The logic is fine - though I can't imagine there are that many targets not already bombed by US or France that require UK involvement -- and those that are left or new ones don't require UK involvement. Anyway - we are going to be guilty of the killing of innocent civilians - actually or by association.

BTW - Anyone know how many Brimstone missiles we have in stock and how long it takes to manufacture one? As we don't know what defines a successful 'war' and completion of objectives - we could be there for quite some time - and I'm thinking we are going to run short sooner rather than later.
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Ref the highlighted part. Sadly, yes we will be. But we could do nothing and be guilty of allowing ISIS to kill them and more.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
The logic is fine - though I can't imagine there are that many targets not already bombed by US or France that require UK involvement -- and those that are left or new ones don't require UK involvement. Anyway - we are going to be guilty of the killing of innocent civilians - actually or by association.

BTW - Anyone know how many Brimstone missiles we have in stock and how long it takes to manufacture one? As we don't know what defines a successful 'war' and completion of objectives - we could be there for quite some time - and I'm thinking we are going to run short sooner rather than later.
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1. We will be guilty of association if innocent people die - we could also sit back and then be guilty of letting innocent people die

2. For someone who has worked in laser guidance as you earlier suggested I'm really amazed you don't seem to understand using the right weapon for the right job - paveway will be used for specific targets , brimstone will be used for specific targets - that's just common sense. Paveway was used in the strike on the oil refinery- understand zero innocent casualties , Brimstone will be used on more precise targets where there could be a risk of collateral damage if paveway is used - I really did think that was self explanatory - especially to someone who has worked in guidance.

3. Yep we could have sat back and let the French and US continue to bomb targets - or we could have rolled up out sleeves and helped in the fight to protect innocent people all over the world. The air strikes will be co ordinated and each military will be assigned specific targets to take out

4. How many do we have ? Well I'm pretty sure official figures won't be released but each jet carries 12 brimstones with a good supply in Cyprus and plenty more back in the UK as well as a good £10billion worth in order ( within the agreed defence budget )
 
Liverpoolphil said:
1. We will be guilty of association if innocent people die - we could also sit back and then be guilty of letting innocent people die

2. For someone who has worked in laser guidance as you earlier suggested I'm really amazed you don't seem to understand using the right weapon for the right job - paveway will be used for specific targets , brimstone will be used for specific targets - that's just common sense. Paveway was used in the strike on the oil refinery- understand zero innocent casualties , Brimstone will be used on more precise targets where there could be a risk of collateral damage if paveway is used - I really did think that was self explanatory - especially to someone who has worked in guidance.

3. Yep we could have sat back and let the French and US continue to bomb targets - or we could have rolled up out sleeves and helped in the fight to protect innocent people all over the world. The air strikes will be co ordinated and each military will be assigned specific targets to take out

4. How many do we have ? Well I'm pretty sure official figures won't be released but each jet carries 12 brimstones with a good supply in Cyprus and plenty more back in the UK as well as a good £10billion worth in order ( within the agreed defence budget )
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No worried on the supplies side - apparently back in 2013 MBDA (the manufacturers - and I used to work for them) had 3000 in stock. So lots for firing.

And yes I know very clearly the difference between a bomb and a guided missile. Though note that Brimstone requires independent target laser designation - which is done by drone - or ground based forces! Just not sure that we add anything militarily by bombing - though certainly our use of GMs may provide a tactical benefit in degrading Daesh in Syria. Not sure it'll make any difference in Leytonstone though.
 
MegaSteve said:
Fairly certain what happened in Leytonstone has got nothing to do with anything other than the fella being not quite right between the ears...
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Most probably right - but such 'dafties' don't need much excuse for perpetrating a bit of madness - and something you could say for all of Daesh
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Most probably right - but such 'dafties' don't need much excuse for perpetrating a bit of madness - and something you could say for all of Daesh
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Speaking of this 'organisation', coming out of the football ground on Sat, I saw a black Range Rover with the registration plate 'D2ESH'. :eek: It was noticed by lots of people, and the car was driven by Mr White-Middle-England!
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
No worried on the supplies side - apparently back in 2013 MBDA (the manufacturers - and I used to work for them) had 3000 in stock. So lots for firing.

And yes I know very clearly the difference between a bomb and a guided missile. Though note that Brimstone requires independent target laser designation - which is done by drone - or ground based forces! Just not sure that we add anything militarily by bombing - though certainly our use of GMs may provide a tactical benefit in degrading Daesh in Syria. Not sure it'll make any difference in Leytonstone though.
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So in your opinion what should the UK be doing instead of joining in with the coalition
 
Liverpoolphil said:
So in your opinion what should the UK be doing instead of joining in with the coalition
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I don't have to have an view on an alternative if I don't think what is being done is appropriate, beneficial or thought through. Alternatives are for those who understand the geo-political and military options rather better than I.

If I have to walk from A to B in the fog I don't follow the direct route if I know that that might well take me over a cliff - I find an alternative way to get there. And if I don't know of one and I don't have a map and a compass I head off to get them or find someone who does know a safe route. And failing all of that I wait until the fog clears, and while I wait I ask myself whether I need to get to B in any case.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I don't have to have an view on an alternative if I don't think what is being done is appropriate, beneficial or thought through. Alternatives are for those who understand the geo-political and military options rather better than I.

If I have to walk from A to B in the fog I don't follow the direct route if I know that that might well take me over a cliff - I find an alternative way to get there. And if I don't know of one and I don't have a map and a compass I head off to get them or find someone who does know a safe route. And failing all of that I wait until the fog clears, and while I wait I ask myself whether I need to get to B in any case.
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So you don't want the UK to be involved in the coalition effort to tackle ISIS but have no alternative to what we should do ?

So do nothing then and watch ISIS continue to kill innocents ?
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You know fine well that I did not say we should do nothing.
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Well what should we do then ?

You say that people better qualified than you can understand alternatives - yet qualified enough to say Air strikes aren't the way to go ?

We are either part of the coalition or come up with another way to combat ISIS because this is real now - people are dying because of ISIS and we need to act
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I don't have to have an view on an alternative if I don't think what is being done is appropriate, beneficial or thought through. Alternatives are for those who understand the geo-political and military options rather better than I.

If I have to walk from A to B in the fog I don't follow the direct route if I know that that might well take me over a cliff - I find an alternative way to get there. And if I don't know of one and I don't have a map and a compass I head off to get them or find someone who does know a safe route. And failing all of that I wait until the fog clears, and while I wait I ask myself whether I need to get to B in any case.
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There are times when the fog takes a long time to clear and you have to make a decision as to whether stay and die or move on and hope that you miss the cliff edge.

Life is about making decisions, some of those decisions may end up wrong but doing nothing is never an option as history shows all to well.
 
Old Skier said:
There are times when the fog takes a long time to clear and you have to make a decision as to whether stay and die or move on and hope that you miss the cliff edge.

Life is about making decisions, some of those decisions may end up wrong but doing nothing is never an option as history shows all to well.
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Doing nothing is always an option in any decision. The act of dong nothing is a decision. If you are saying that every decision has to result in an specific action where something happens then I'd like to take you on at pontoon.

You may feel that doing nothing is not an option in this particular circumstance, and fair enough. But plenty of decisions in all walks of life are to do nothing at the current time.
 
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Hacker Khan said:
Doing nothing is always an option in any decision. The act of dong nothing is a decision. If you are saying that every decision has to result in an specific action where something happens then I'd like to take you on at pontoon.

You may feel that doing nothing is not an option in this particular circumstance, and fair enough. But plenty of decisions in all walks of life are to do nothing at the current time.
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Is doing nothing an option you feel can be done in this situation ?
 
Hacker Khan said:
Doing nothing is always an option in any decision. The act of dong nothing is a decision. If you are saying that every decision has to result in an specific action where something happens then I'd like to take you on at pontoon.

You may feel that doing nothing is not an option in this particular circumstance, and fair enough. But plenty of decisions in all walks of life are to do nothing at the current time.
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I see where your coming from but in SLH sitting down and doing nothing would lead to him starving to death.

Doing nothing in respect of IS means they are left free to do as they want in the context given by SLH.
 
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