Tiger in another car crash

[Lucifer MorningStar]

I get all that, but this goes back to him being seen as a role model, he has been and is used as one, he was put on a pedestal and abused that position.

For someone to be given that sort of status they need to be whiter than white imo.

I don’t expect him to be a monk, nobody is perfect, but I don’t see how it sporting life and personal life can be seperated when it is his actions that have brought them in to the spotlight.

I’m not using being ex Mob as an excuse, you’ll of seen as much as me as to how that’s irrelevant, it’s more to upbringing and personal experiences.

Nobody is whiter than white and for anyone to expect someone to be is imo naïve, which is what raises the issue of people having role models. Even famous people are human and as a result are going to have flaws.

I can equally say I can't understand how you can't see how his sporting life and off course life are separate, my own work life and home life are very separate and do not have any crossing over. That's how I see it for Tiger one is his working life the other is his personal life and thats where he has all the issues that need addressing. It irks me though when I see people say should never be allowed on a course again etc, we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean work life should be affected and calling for people not to be allowed to continue with their livelihood regardless of financial worth. (that isn't personally aimed at you btw just a general irritation I have)

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I get all that, but this goes back to him being seen as a role model, he has been and is used as one, he was put on a pedestal and abused that position.

For someone to be given that sort of status they need to be whiter than white imo.

I don’t expect him to be a monk, nobody is perfect, but I don’t see how it sporting life and personal life can be seperated when it is his actions that have brought them in to the spotlight.

I’m not using being ex Mob as an excuse, you’ll of seen as much as me as to how that’s irrelevant, it’s more to upbringing and personal experiences.

It’s prob rarer to find a sportsman or women who hasn’t had issues off the field in some capacity

Not many are whiter than white - we have all supported footballers that have had off the field issues

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It’s prob rarer to find a sportsman or women who hasn’t had issues off the field in some capacity

Not many are whiter than white - we have all supported footballers that have had off the field issues

It really isn't. We can all probably name the big problem sports people, Woods, Best, Maradona, Higgins, Armstrong, Greenwood are the ones that immediately spring to mind. A sprinkling compared to the others that just get on with their lives. Any indescretions regular sports people have are very minor in comparison. Excelling at sport is not linked to being a muppet in your private life.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

It really isn't. We can all probably name the big problem sports people, Woods, Best, Maradona, Higgins, Armstrong, Greenwood are the ones that immediately spring to mind. A sprinkling compared to the others that just get on with their lives. Any indescretions regular sports people have are very minor in comparison. Excelling at sport is not linked to being a muppet in your private life.

There are literally dozens of examples over the years, Gazza, Giggs, Beckham, Dani Alves, Lance Armstrong, Mike Tyson, Oscar Pistoriuous, John Terry, Ronaldhino, Angel Cabrera are just some other more recent ones without needing to google. But I took @Arthur Wedge comment to mean there are many sports people that have had issue in their personal life that we don't know about as after all they're just people. However some are more high profile than others so it's more widely reported, but is that any different to celebrity life or normal life anywhere.

Though you are absolutely correct excelling is sport is not linked to being a complete bell end.

 

[PaulMdj]

Nobody is whiter than white and for anyone to expect someone to be is imo naïve, which is what raises the issue of people having role models. Even famous people are human and as a result are going to have flaws.

I can equally say I can't understand how you can't see how his sporting life and off course life are separate, my own work life and home life are very separate and do not have any crossing over. That's how I see it for Tiger one is his working life the other is his personal life and thats where he has all the issues that need addressing. It irks me though when I see people say should never be allowed on a course again etc, we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean work life should be affected and calling for people not to be allowed to continue with their livelihood regardless of financial worth. (that isn't personally aimed at you btw just a general irritation I have)

If he can lie and cheat the people he professes to love the most and can’t be trusted, why should he be trusted or behave with integrity on or around the Golf Course?

Between 100-150 alleged affairs while married, including rumours of golfers wives.

It’s the grey areas that overlap between his personal and public life that, imo, call him into question.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If he can lie and cheat the people he professes to love the most and can’t be trusted, why should he be trusted or behave with integrity on or around the Golf Course?

Between 100-150 alleged affairs while married, including rumours of golfers wives.

It’s the grey areas that overlap between his personal and public life that, imo, call him into question.

Making a heck of leap there

Has there ever been any suggestion of him cheating at golf ?

Is there any time where he hasn’t acted with integrity on the course

There is a good amount of golfers who cheated on their wives

Same with other sporting stars - it’s never meant that they are cheating the sport or couldn’t be trusted

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

If he can lie and cheat the people he professes to love the most and can’t be trusted, why should he be trusted or behave with integrity on or around the Golf Course?

Between 100-150 alleged affairs while married, including rumours of golfers wives.

It’s the grey areas that overlap between his personal and public life that, imo, call him into question.

And yet.. There are many examples of people that have cheated on the golf course or throughout sports that haven't cheated on their wives does that mean they have more golfing integrity. Plus the fact Woods couldn't go anywhere on a golf course without a camera up his backside so he would be caught in an instant, unlike in his personal life where he is free to make mistakes.

I think it's a pretty loose claim to state someone who cheats on their wife is going to be someone who should be questioned for integrity of how they play a game. I don't do a single online course at work without using AI or asking others what answers might be so I guess thats cheating, does that mean I'm more likely to use the leather wedge or be underhand with my scoring on a golf course. I'll hold my hands up and admit mistakes I've made when I was younger in relationships, doesn't make me a cheat on the golf course.. You're playing fast and loose making that connection imo.

Grey areas in his personal and public life do not mean his on course activities should be questioned.. Where do we stand on someone thats previously spent 2 years in prison for assualt, should they come out and not be allowed to return to their working life or should they be given a chance to continue with their life having served their time.. Because thats exactly whats happened with Cabrara

 

[PaulMdj]

And yet.. There are many examples of people that have cheated on the golf course or throughout sports that haven't cheated on their wives does that mean they have more golfing integrity. Plus the fact Woods couldn't go anywhere on a golf course without a camera up his backside so he would be caught in an instant, unlike in his personal life where he is free to make mistakes.

I think it's a pretty loose claim to state someone who cheats on their wife is going to be someone who should be questioned for integrity of how they play a game. I don't do a single online course at work without using AI or asking others what answers might be so I guess thats cheating, does that mean I'm more likely to use the leather wedge or be underhand with my scoring on a golf course. I'll hold my hands up and admit mistakes I've made when I was younger in relationships, doesn't make me a cheat on the golf course.. You're playing fast and loose making that connection imo.

Grey areas in his personal and public life do not mean his on course activities should be questioned.. Where do we stand on someone thats previously spent 2 years in prison for assualt, should they come out and not be allowed to return to their working life or should they be given a chance to continue with their life having served their time.. Because thats exactly whats happened with Cabrara

I didn’t say he cheats, I just ask the question where trust and integrity lies, all his golf wasn’t played on TV, maybe he played in certain events or locations knowing there was more “temptation” there.

As for anyone who has made a mistake, there will be people who’ll forgive and forget, there’ll be those who maybe wary of them or there’ll be those who’ll never forgive them, that’s the reality of us having freewill. A lot of were we personally stand on these mistakes/crimes/slip ups, etc might depend on what the person did.

To me, Tiger’s legacy is tarnished for good. Sad, but maybe that’s just me.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

I didn’t say he cheats, I just ask the question where trust and integrity lies, all his golf wasn’t played on TV, maybe he played in certain events or locations knowing there was more “temptation” there.

As for anyone who has made a mistake, there will be people who’ll forgive and forget, there’ll be those who maybe wary of them or there’ll be those who’ll never forgive them, that’s the reality of us having freewill. A lot of were we personally stand on these mistakes/crimes/slip ups, etc might depend on what the person did.

To me, Tiger’s legacy is tarnished for good. Sad, but maybe that’s just me.

Isn’t that one and the same thing though. You’re saying because of his off course cheating & behaviour his integrity on course should be questioned or is questionable, ergo in golf terms is cheating, as what other on course actions are there that are questionable! Unless you mean tantrums, club throwing etc that’s no different to other top Pro’s like Rory.

I agree there will be some who forgive and forget and others that don’t. But my point is where’s the line! Tiger has been a complete dick on more than one occasion and cheating on your wife isn’t a great look and his DUI issues to. But is that worse than a man convicted of beating his wife and requiring an interpol police order for his arrest and doing time in prison, yet he gets to continue to play so why shouldn’t Tiger.

For me his golfing legacy will never be tarnished by his off course antics. I know he’s clearly a trouble and not great person, but he’ll always arguably one of the 2 greatest golfers to ever play the game and that is beyond question as it there in the record books plain to see. Probably best to leave it there for me now as we can go in the circle all day.

My final thoughts are he should be held accountable for his off course issues and probably needs a lot of help with a potential addiction. But that doesn’t mean he should not be allowed to play golf again .

 

[irip]

Yes, absolutely 100%, sporting talent does not give him a free pass imo.

Can I admire his golfing talent but also have utter disdain for some of the life choices he has made?

In my opinion I can but interested if you agree or not?

 

[PaulMdj]

Isn’t that one and the same thing though. You’re saying because of his off course cheating & behaviour his integrity on course should be questioned or is questionable, ergo in golf terms is cheating, as what other on course actions are there that are questionable! Unless you mean tantrums, club throwing etc that’s no different to other top Pro’s like Rory.

I agree there will be some who forgive and forget and others that don’t. But my point is where’s the line! Tiger has been a complete dick on more than one occasion and cheating on your wife isn’t a great look and his DUI issues to. But is that worse than a man convicted of beating his wife and requiring an interpol police order for his arrest and doing time in prison, yet he gets to continue to play so why shouldn’t Tiger.

For me his golfing legacy will never be tarnished by his off course antics. I know he’s clearly a trouble and not great person, but he’ll always arguably one of the 2 greatest golfers to ever play the game and that is beyond question as it there in the record books plain to see. Probably best to leave it there for me now as we can go in the circle all day.

My final thoughts are he should be held accountable for his off course issues and probably needs a lot of help with a potential addiction. But that doesn’t mean he should not be allowed to play golf again .

Obviously someone of his stature will always be the centre of rumours and accusations, using an illegal golf ball for years, banned for illegal drug use, use of steroids prior to 2008.

Maybe all false, urban myths, whatever, but all bar 1 of his Major wins came prior to 2008 when the USPGA introduced drug testing.

Don’t think he should be banned for life, but certainly, imo, a few bans when these issues came to a head may of helped in the long run.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Obviously someone of his stature will always be the centre of rumours and accusations, using an illegal golf ball for years, banned for illegal drug use, use of steroids prior to 2008.

Maybe all false, urban myths, whatever, but all bar 1 of his Major wins came prior to 2008 when the USPGA introduced drug testing.

Don’t think he should be banned for life, but certainly, imo, a few bans when these issues came to a head may of helped in the long run.

Did you support Duncan Ferguson when he was at your club ?

 

[PaulMdj]

Can I admire his golfing talent but also have utter disdain for some of the life choices he has made?

In my opinion I can but interested if you agree or not?

If I’m honest, you can feel about it how you wish, yes and no for me, as I said previously, these superstars, legends, icons, however you want to describe them end up with a tarnished image.

Maradona, Best, etc all tarnished, who knows how even better them and Tiger may of been if they hadn’t gone given in to temptation.

 

[wjemather]

It really doesn't take much searching to find countless stories about PED use (steroids & HGH in particular) throughout Woods' career.

It's bizarre that there are people who are absolutely aware of this confidently claiming that Woods is completely untainted on the golf course. Perhaps they don't consider PED abuse as cheating, or something that affects sporting integrity - Woods certainly didn't appear to when asked about it earlier in his career.

 

[PaulMdj]

Did you support Duncan Ferguson when he was at your club ?

He was banned, served a prison sentence, would I trust him near drink? No absolutely not.

Just like Tiger, one of the best Golfers ever, would I get in a car with him or trust him around women? No absolutely not.

Did you support Suarez?

We can play whatsaboutery all day.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Obviously someone of his stature will always be the centre of rumours and accusations, using an illegal golf ball for years, banned for illegal drug use, use of steroids prior to 2008.

Maybe all false, urban myths, whatever, but all bar 1 of his Major wins came prior to 2008 when the USPGA introduced drug testing.

Don’t think he should be banned for life, but certainly, imo, a few bans when these issues came to a head may of helped in the long run.

The drug testing one is a bit off an anomaly, because it’s not illegal anywhere to take testosterone, it’s not even illegal to own it or buy it. The legality comes from selling it only when not prescribed, it’s on odd topic as it something that came up through work recently. It’s also sport dependent on what’s allowed regarding PEDs and how they improve performance.

As for Tiger prior to 2008 it also wasn’t illegal or banned as a substance for golfers to take so even if he had take it and tested positive for it he wouldn’t have broke any laws or golfing rules with regards to anti doping. So it’s kind of an irrelevant argument when trying to overshadow his achievements. Whether people want to agree with that morally or not doesn’t matter unfortunately it’s a fact.

It’s also still not against the rules to take Steroids in golf as long as you can provide medical evidence of why your taking, why it’s being prescribed, that it’s registered with WADA and the tour provide a TUE exemption for its required medical use. I’d argue they can probably find a case for Woods to be allowed TRT based on muscle wastage around his multiple back surgeries.

So is it questionable? Absolutely it is,
Is it permissible in the sport as long as he follows the PGAT TUE guidelines and WADA advise? Yes it is

It’s a very grey area!

It really doesn't take much searching to find countless stories about PED use (steroids & HGH in particular) throughout Woods' career.

It's bizarre that there are people who are absolutely aware of this confidently claiming that Woods is completely untainted on the golf course. Perhaps they don't consider PED abuse as cheating, or something that affects sporting integrity - Woods certainly didn't appear to when asked about it earlier in his career.

As above only PED abuse if proven he’s got PEDs in his system after 2008 laws were brought in. Before that irrelevant because it wasn’t banned, also if it’s in accordance with the above guidelines again it’s permissible. Let’s not allow facts to get in the way of judgement though

 

[PaulMdj]

The drug testing one is a bit off an anomaly, because it’s not illegal anywhere to take testosterone, it’s not even illegal to own it or buy it. The legality comes from selling it only when not prescribed, it’s on odd topic as it something that came up through work recently.

As for Tiger prior to 2008 it also wasn’t illegal or banned as a substance for golfers to take so even if he had take it and tested positive for it he wouldn’t have broke any laws or golfing rules with regards to anti doping. So it’s kind of an irrelevant argument when trying to overshadow his achievements. Whether people want to agree with that morally or not doesn’t matter unfortunately it’s a fact.

It’s also still not against the rules to take Steroids in golf as long as you can provide medical evidence of why your taking, why it’s being prescribed, that it’s registered with WADA and the tour provide a TUE exemption for its required medical use. I’d argue they can probably find a case for Woods to be allowed TRT based on muscle wastage around his multiple back surgeries.

So is it questionable? Absolutely it is,
Is it permissible in the sport as long as he follows the PGAT TUE guidelines and WADA advise? Yes it is

It’s a very grey area!

As above only PED abuse if proven he’s got PEDs in his system after 2008 laws were brought in. Before that irrelevant because it wasn’t banned, also if it’s in accordance with the above guidelines again it’s permissible. Let’s not allow facts to get in the way of judgement though

Thanks for that, certainly wasn’t as upto date as you are.

I’m not sure I agree about the use of steroids pre testing though, I understand what you’ve said, but Golf had to fall in line to both Olympic regulations (WADA) and the rumours around the illegal performance enhancing drugs possibly being used on Tour.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Thanks for that, certainly wasn’t as upto date as you are.

I’m not sure I agree about the use of steroids pre testing though, I understand what you’ve said, but Golf had to fall in line to both Olympic regulations (WADA) and the rumours around the illegal performance enhancing drugs possibly being used on Tour.

Re the pre 2008, if no guidelines exist and no testing exists with with backing of WADA then even if they had tested him and he tested positive there is no way they could provide any bans or claim wrong doing. That is pretty much why they brought in the 2008 legislation as it was Gary Player that was calling for it and claiming drugs cheats in the sport, which gave even more legs to the drugs cheats theory. There a massive article in it I read years ago which is why no retroactive action could ever take place because they couldn’t invoke bans or punishment when there was nothing to govern it within the game.

I agree though certainly it was an issue but golf only fell inline because of the rumours not because it had to fall inline subtly but important difference that would be argued in court if anyone had tried to invoke bans or punishment at the time.

Below is the exert from their legislation about some criteria to get a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) within the game.

To get a TUE for testosterone, a player must prove:

The substance is needed to treat a diagnosed medical condition backed by clinical evidence.

Treatment will not enhance performance beyond a return to "normal health".

There are no reasonable permitted alternatives.

The medical need is not a result of prior use of prohibited substances (e.g., historical steroid abuse)

So it is allowed within the sport as long as you can medically prove the requirement. There is quite a few more hoops to jump through to get it. But it’s highly likely a good Dr and evidential backing if all his surgeries and muscle issues that they could probably prove a case. So even if he was a drugs cheat it could essentially be allowed. Like I said a very grey area and one that’s easy to jump to conclusions on.

I believe Shaun Micheel was the first ever one given a TUE to be able to play whilst having Testosterone replacement therapy so there is certainly precedent for it.

 

[Fore Right]

No Laying Up who are huge Tiger fans have got it pretty much spot on here.
Worth clicking the link and listening for 10 mins.

 

[PaulMdj]

Re the pre 2008, if no guidelines exist and no testing exists with with backing of WADA then even if they had tested him and he tested positive there is no way they could provide any bans or claim wrong doing. That is pretty much why they brought in the 2008 legislation as it was Gary Player that was calling for it and claiming drugs cheats in the sport, which gave even more legs to the drugs cheats theory. There a massive article in it I read years ago which is why no retroactive action could ever take place because they couldn’t invoke bans or punishment when there was nothing to govern it within the game.

I agree though certainly it was an issue but golf only fell inline because of the rumours not because it had to fall inline subtly but important difference that would be argued in court if anyone had tried to invoke bans or punishment at the time.

Below is the exert from their legislation about some criteria to get a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) within the game.

To get a TUE for testosterone, a player must prove:

The substance is needed to treat a diagnosed medical condition backed by clinical evidence.

Treatment will not enhance performance beyond a return to "normal health".

There are no reasonable permitted alternatives.

The medical need is not a result of prior use of prohibited substances (e.g., historical steroid abuse)

So it is allowed within the sport as long as you can medically prove the requirement. There is quite a few more hoops to jump through to get it. But it’s highly likely a good Dr and evidential backing if all his surgeries and muscle issues that they could probably prove a case. So even if he was a drugs cheat it could essentially be allowed. Like I said a very grey area and one that’s easy to jump to conclusions on.

I believe Shaun Micheel was the first ever one given a TUE to be able to play whilst having Testosterone replacement therapy so there is certainly precedent for it.

But, playing devil’s advocate, in theory pre 2008, he and others (who knows) could of been using performance enhancing drugs and gaining and advantage over the others in the field, just because there was no testing or bans in place doesn’t mean it was OK.