Thorbjorn Oleson putting incident

[sev112]

sev,
to add to rulefan's example, would you be happy if a player who, while shuffling through some deep rough in search of his ball accidentally caught it with his foot and kicked it on to the fairway, was allowed to count that as a stroke and play his next shot from the fairway?

Anyway, aren't you trying to have it both ways? Count the accidental knock into the hole as a stroke because it had a good outcome; but replace the ball you accidentally knocked 20 feet away because it had a bad outcome?

No, but I'll tell you why I'm confused on this one.
Golf is about seeing how few shots it takes you to get your ball in the hole, using your golf clubs in the way they are intended.
So no you can't kick your ball.
If you accidentally hit your ball with the thing that it's intended to be hit with, then it should count as a stroke. If you want to bring the ball back from where you hit it (accidentally) you can under penalty of one stroke, exactly as I can just by declaring it unplayable.

So why would you penalise a guy if he hits his ball into the hole, using a fair club (presuming of course that it isn't illegal because of a push , a scoop, or because his legs are astride the line etc) ? That just sounds like a very odd rule and not what was the intention of the rule.

 

[doublebogey7]

Do we know that he "claimed" it was not a stroke? Perhaps he called a referee because he wasn't sure if what he had done was a stroke or not. And that did matter in terms of knowing where to play his next shot from. If he had got it wrong he would have incurred 2 penalty strokes not 1.

But surely having consulted the referee he must have "claimed" to have not to have made a stroke otherwise the official would have ruled differently.

 

[doublebogey7]

No, but I'll tell you why I'm confused on this one.
Golf is about seeing how few shots it takes you to get your ball in the hole, using your golf clubs in the way they are intended.
So no you can't kick your ball.
If you accidentally hit your ball with the thing that it's intended to be hit with, then it should count as a stroke. If you want to bring the ball back from where you hit it (accidentally) you can under penalty of one stroke, exactly as I can just by declaring it unplayable.

So why would you penalise a guy if he hits his ball into the hole, using a fair club (presuming of course that it isn't illegal because of a push , a scoop, or because his legs are astride the line etc) ? That just sounds like a very odd rule and not what was the intention of the rule.

You may be right that this was not the intention of the rule, but the alternative would be a ball accidentally knocked off the tee by a club would count as a stroke and am sure most of us would not want that.

 

[sev112]

Not necessarily, because the ball is not in play in that case

 

[doublebogey7]

Not necessarily, because the ball is not in play in that case

But if any strike by a club on a ball was a stroke then why would a ball knocked off the tee by a club not be a stroke.

 

[Colin L]

No, but I'll tell you why I'm confused on this one.
Golf is about seeing how few shots it takes you to get your ball in the hole, using your golf clubs in the way they are intended.
So no you can't kick your ball.
If you accidentally hit your ball with the thing that it's intended to be hit with, then it should count as a stroke. If you want to bring the ball back from where you hit it (accidentally) you can under penalty of one stroke, exactly as I can just by declaring it unplayable.

So why would you penalise a guy if he hits his ball into the hole, using a fair club (presuming of course that it isn't illegal because of a push , a scoop, or because his legs are astride the line etc) ? That just sounds like a very odd rule and not what was the intention of the rule.

I see we start with agreement - always useful in an argument. Golf is about using your golf clubs in the way they are intended. Agreed. But does that not undermine everything you then say about an accidental movement of the ball with a club? Clubs are intended to be used deliberately in a way that achieves what you want - the ball in the place you were aiming for. An accidental hitting of the ball does not meet that intention.

As to not replacing a ball that has been accidentally moved, that would result in highly variable and inequitable outcomes. You get the benefit of an accidental "stroke" on the putting green that puts your ball to a tap-in distance; I get the huge disadvantage when my accident puts my ball off the green into a bunker. It is simpler and fairer as it is: that shouldn't have happened so the outcome isn't valid; you are penalised for your carelessness; now put your ball back where it was and play a proper stroke.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting incident and discussion.

With regard the specific incident I think TO was right to call the ref. He needs to know what the correct procedure is. As long as he follows that with the approval of the referee he cannot suffer any further sanction and whether it was ruled as a stroke or not the outcome is the same, i.e. he signs for a 6. Otherwise, as Colin has indicated there might be a 2 shot penalty - i.e. if he replaces when he shouldn't or doesn't replace when he should. I think what happens is that he is just addressing the ball and has told the ref, "I didn't intend to hit it", so the ball is replaced with the agreement of ref and no issues.

As for why an accidental hit doesn't count as a stroke, this goes back to the definition of a stroke including "intention of striking at and moving the ball". Without the inclusion of intention an air shot would not be a stroke, but it follows that in consequence accidental hits aren't strokes.

A similar question was discussed a while back I recall, and I tried to think of how you could redefine a stroke to cover this. You could say add to the existing definition something on the lines of

(b) any forward movement of the club which causes a ball in play to move whether or not the movement of the ball was intended

By limiting it to a "ball in play" you would still enable re-teeing if a ball is knocked of the tee before being put into play.

One advantage is that if you do move you ball in the act of addressing it or with a practice swing you wouldn't have to faff around replacing the ball.

However you have to be careful changing things as fundamental as this as there are many interdependencies within the Rules, and as with a lot of these things any change is likely to have a knock on effect elsewhere.

 

[Old Skier]

Golf is about using your golf clubs in the way they are intended.

I wish.

 

[doublebogey7]

Interesting incident and discussion.

With regard the specific incident I think TO was right to call the ref. He needs to know what the correct procedure is. As long as he follows that with the approval of the referee he cannot suffer any further sanction and whether it was ruled as a stroke or not the outcome is the same, i.e. he signs for a 6. Otherwise, as Colin has indicated there might be a 2 shot penalty - i.e. if he replaces when he shouldn't or doesn't replace when he should. I think what happens is that he is just addressing the ball and has told the ref, "I didn't intend to hit it", so the ball is replaced with the agreement of ref and no issues.

As for why an accidental hit doesn't count as a stroke, this goes back to the definition of a stroke including "intention of striking at and moving the ball". Without the inclusion of intention an air shot would not be a stroke, but it follows that in consequence accidental hits aren't strokes.

A similar question was discussed a while back I recall, and I tried to think of how you could redefine a stroke to cover this. You could say add to the existing definition something on the lines of

(b) any forward movement of the club which causes a ball in play to move whether or not the movement of the ball was intended

By limiting it to a "ball in play" you would still enable re-teeing if a ball is knocked of the tee before being put into play.

One advantage is that if you do move you ball in the act of addressing it or with a practice swing you wouldn't have to faff around replacing the ball.

However you have to be careful changing things as fundamental as this as there are many interdependencies within the Rules, and as with a lot of these things any change is likely to have a knock on effect elsewhere.

But then you would need another definition for a ball not in play. The rules are already confusing enough for some!

 

[MashieNiblick]

But then you would need another definition for a ball not in play. The rules are already confusing enough for some!

The suggestion is an addition to the current definition to address the issue raised by sev112 about accidental hits with a club. A ball not in play would therefore still be covered as now, so that an air shot on the tee would still be a stroke and knocking the ball off the tee when addressing it would still not be a stroke.

As there are already some rules which apply to a ball in play but not to a ball not in play, hopefully it wouldn't be too confusing.

 

[rulefan]

Interesting incident and discussion.


A similar question was discussed a while back I recall, and I tried to think of how you could redefine a stroke to cover this. You could say add to the existing definition something on the lines of

(b) any forward movement of the club which causes a ball in play to move whether or not the movement of the ball was intended


One advantage is that if you do move you ball in the act of addressing it or with a practice swing you wouldn't have to faff around replacing the ball.
.

Given that addressing the ball refers to grounding the club in front of or behind the ball, would one rule apply in one situation and another in the other?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Given that addressing the ball refers to grounding the club in front of or behind the ball, would one rule apply in one situation and another in the other?

I don't think so. Both situations would apply irrespective of whether the ball had been addressed. Many players even when making a shot don't ground the club.

So a stroke would be defined as

A "stroke" is

(a)the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke; (the current definition, which doesn't make reference to addressing the ball)

(b) any forward movement of the club by the player which strikes and causes the player's ball in play to move, whether or not the player intended to strike and move the ball (suggested addition to cover accidental hits other than before the ball is put in play on the tee)

Would there need to be a reference to addressing the ball to make this work?

I think probably the issue is that (b) is to a degree circular. The ball isn't in play until you have made a stroke at it, but moving it accidentally would be a stroke. Would need to be more clearly and cleverly worded to work.

Actually I think the rule is fine as it is but is and this is just a theoretical exercise/bit of fun to see if there is a workable way of making an accidental hit with a club, a stroke. I think it is actually harder than it seems at first sight.

Out of interest does anyone know if it has always been the case that the definition of a stroke included intent.

 

[Colin L]

Out of interest does anyone know if it has always been the case that the definition of a stroke included intent.

1933 is the first time as far as I can see that the definition of a stroke is limited to a forward movement made with the intention of hitting the ball. Prior to that any movement of the ball caused by the head of the club except knocking it off a tee when addressing it was a stroke.

And in the first codified rules of 1899 it seems it included any movement of the ball no matter how it was done:

A ‘stroke’ shall be any movement of the ball caused by the player, except as provided for in Rule 4, or any downward movement of the club made with the intention of striking the ball.


I'm not sure when the requirement to replace an accidentally moved ball came in. Still looking!

 

[Fyldewhite]

Out of interest does anyone know if it has always been the case that the definition of a stroke included intent.

I had a quick look through here.... http://www.ruleshistory.com/

Seems the definition of "a stroke" changed in 1934 from this......

13. A ‘stroke’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking the ball, or any contact between the head of the club and the ball resulting in movement of the ball, except in the case of a ball accidentally knocked off a tee (Rule 2(1)).

to this.....

13. A ‘stroke’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking the ball.

Not sure what this adds to the debate except that it's been more or less the same as today for around 80 years. Personally, I too don't see the issue here. Looking at the older versions of the rules does show how much they were open to interpretation and have been made much more specific (and complicated!!) over time. Particularly like the reference to a drop from "watery filth" in the first set....obviously played at our place in winter lol

 

[Colin L]

Particularly like the reference to a drop from "watery filth" in the first set....obviously played at our place in winter lol

Hey, get your Scots right: it was wattery filth

 

[MashieNiblick]

That's really interesting, thanks guys.

So it looks like pre 1934 if you hit the ball with a practice swing it would be a stroke as per Sev112's point.

The old definition wording is a neat way of addressing the issue and avoiding the issues around accidentally knocking the ball off the tee.

I see why it was changed though. I do think that it makes sense to have a simple definition based on intent. That better reflects the how the game is played. If you aren't trying to hit the ball it isn't a stroke and if you are it is. A stroke shouldn't be an accidental occurance.

 

[delc]

Whilst playing in one of the final Tour events Thorbjorn Oleson appeared to accidentally strike his ball, on the putting green, whilst carrying out some practice strokes, but didn't seem to get penalized for it! Can anyone clarify whether or not he was penalized, and if not why not.

thanks

Read Rule 18-2.