Things That Gladden The Heart

The Squirrel said:
There’s also.a fairly long and terrible catalogue of miscarriages of justice that have had to be corrected later, and I don’t think we’ll ever eliminate that possibility entirely. Given this fact, then if you’re in favour the death penalty, you’re in favour of (or at least happy to accept) the state sometimes killing innocent people.
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Yes, that reads like good reasoning, but imho it is predicated on a system of punishment for murder, where the penalty is fixed. As seems the basis each time this question arises.
The system could be different. The penalty for murder could be variable at the discretion of the Judge.
B B knows , as I do, that the Judge has a lot more knowledge of the case than comes out in Court. If he had the slightest doubt, on fact or procedure, he would give a prison sentence, if it were available to him.
But we also know there are slam dunk cases, ( Southport) where such persons should be eliminated, not only because of the heinous nature of what they did, but to eliminate the possibility of their future ability to commit murder ( when some Burke says they are cured and fit to resume life in society).

I’m reasonably confident that in the cases where those executed were not guilty, then if the above system were in place , they would not have been sentenced as they were.

I have always been perplexed asto why the sentence for murder has to be fixed. Both in fact, and also when the pros and cons in “ the hanging debate” are discussed.
 
Swinglowandslow said:
Yes, that reads like good reasoning, but imho it is predicated on a system of punishment for murder, where the penalty is fixed. As seems the basis each time this question arises.
The system could be different. The penalty for murder could be variable at the discretion of the Judge.
B B knows , as I do, that the Judge has a lot more knowledge of the case than comes out in Court. If he had the slightest doubt, on fact or procedure, he would give a prison sentence, if it were available to him.
But we also know there are slam dunk cases, ( Southport) where such persons should be eliminated, not only because of the heinous nature of what they did, but to eliminate the possibility of their future ability to commit murder ( when some Burke says they are cured and fit to resume life in society).

I’m reasonably confident that in the cases where those executed were not guilty, then if the above system were in place , they would not have been sentenced as they were.

I have always been perplexed asto why the sentence for murder has to be fixed. Both in fact, and also when the pros and cons in “ the hanging debate” are discussed.
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The system isn’t fixed; ‘life’ sentences vary widely. However sentencing is determined on seriousness of the crime rather than amount of guilt (implying that probable guilt rather than ‘satisfied so that you are sure’ could and should exist ). Quite an important principle.

Seems an incredibly dangerous slippery slope to have 3-tier justice as proposed here. Not guilty, probably guilty, really guilty, with sentences determined accordingly.

If the judge had serious doubt on procedure or fact then that should have formed part of their summing up in what they ask the jury to consider; so has already been put before and considered by the jury.
 
The Squirrel said:
The system isn’t fixed; ‘life’ sentences vary widely. However sentencing is determined on seriousness of the crime rather than amount of guilt (implying that probable guilt rather than ‘satisfied so that you are sure’ could and should exist ). Quite an important principle.

Seems an incredibly dangerous slippery slope to have 3-tier justice as proposed here. Not guilty, probably guilty, really guilty, with sentences determined accordingly.

If the judge had serious doubt on procedure or fact then that should have formed part of their summing up in what they ask the jury to consider; so has already been put before and considered by the jury.
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You are wrong, the sentence for murder is fixed by law. Now it is life imprisonment. The fact that ‘life’ turns out to be different things for different people doesn’t change that the sentence is fixed. I.e ‘life’
. When people were executed having been found guilty of murder, the sentence was fixed then, and it that case it was sentenced to death.
Whatever reservations the judge had about a persons guilt, as now, he is obliged to sentence according to the law.
A judge’s ‘summing up’ is not an instruction to the jury. It is a balanced summing up of the evidence as has been presented. Commentators on cases can and do make views as to whether the judge summed up correctly, or showed bias, or was negligent in some way in respect of the law. ( and appeals are sometimes based on what is alleged to be wrong summing up). But no jury is instructed in a summing up as to their required verdict,and no jury is bound by anyone’s view but their own collective one.

And the judge is bound by the jury’s verdict.

But his sentencing is his, within the boundaries of set by law.

What I am advocating is that for murder the law should be changed so that sentencing has a range of punishments available to the judge, including the death sentence for slam dunk cases, and alternative sentences for others

Your second paragraph is not what I am saying.




.
 
Voyager EMH said:
I have met and conversed with several murderers. I do not believe that the prospect of being sentenced to a death penalty would have prevented any of them from doing what they did.
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Absolutely, but if they are ever released they may do it again, were as the death sentence 100% prevents that.
 
PaulMdj said:
Absolutely, but if they are ever released they may do it again, were as the death sentence 100% prevents that.
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Nobody will ever convince me the death penalty should be passed as a sentence. I’ve heard all the arguments for it, but effectively state sanctioned murder leaves to many things open to debate and even just one single wrong conviction is one to many.
 
Lucifer MorningStar said:
Nobody will ever convince me the death penalty should be passed as a sentence. I’ve heard all the arguments for it, but effectively state sanctioned murder leaves to many things open to debate and even just one single wrong conviction is one to many.
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To be honest, that’s how I feel 99% of the time, but every so often a case comes in to the public domain and every ounce of me says the killer(s) should be put down.
 
PaulMdj said:
To be honest, that’s how I feel 99% of the time, but every so often a case comes in to the public domain and every ounce of me says the killer(s) should be put down.
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There’s no agenda to my question, in fact it’s a question I ask myself sometimes. Is your “every ounce says the killer(s) should be put down…” a subconscious desire for revenge, an eye for an eye?

I found myself very conflicted over Huntley’s murder. No one should die like that, and I had hoped he lived a long life behind bars but I didn’t regret he’s died.

It’s too complex a moral dilemma for me to process.
 
Arthur Wedge said:
Will never believe that the death penalty should ever return


But every now and then I don’t get upset when some justice is carried out to someone
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And that last line makes the person carrying out “justice” no better than the murderer. Nobody has the right to carry out any form of justice other than the police or courts of law.

On that point I won’t comment further on this debate on the death penalty this is meant to be a light thread for happy thoughts not a debate on the immorality of the death penalty and vigilantism.

Back to things that gladden the heart. I’ve had a day pain free in my shoulder ☺️
 
The biggest argument against capital punishment has to be the comparable murder rates of the USA and UK.

The former has a per capita murder rate of nearly five times the UK, despite a significant number of states having the death penalty.

It’s hard, on that basis, to argue that the death penalty is a deterrent.
 
I don’t think the death penalty should return as an innocent person will sooner or later be executed but there are certain individuals and crimes that make me doubt myself.

One thing I read that really annoys me is that Huntley had his Xbox taken off of him recently due to rule breaking.
What is he doing with an Xbox to start with?
Keep him in a hole in the ground giving him bread & water every day until nature takes it course.

That might infringe his human rights but for me he lost them when he killed children.

I think making prison harder especially for those in for a whole life sentence is the way forward.
 
Lucifer MorningStar said:
And that last line makes the person carrying out “justice” no better than the murderer. Nobody has the right to carry out any form of justice other than the police or courts of law.

On that point I won’t comment further on this debate on the death penalty this is meant to be a light thread for happy thoughts not a debate on the immorality of the death penalty and vigilantism.

Back to things that gladden the heart. I’ve had a day pain free in my shoulder ☺️
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I agree
 
irip said:
I don’t think the death penalty should return as an innocent person will sooner or later be executed but there are certain individuals and crimes that make me doubt myself.

One thing I read that really annoys me is that Huntley had his Xbox taken off of him recently due to rule breaking.
What is he doing with an Xbox to start with?
Keep him in a hole in the ground giving him bread & water every day until nature takes it course.

That might infringe his human rights but for me he lost them when he killed children.

I think making prison harder especially for those in for a whole life sentence is the way forward.
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Whilst I’m not suggesting it is your view, there does nevertheless seem to be a widely held belief that prisons are some sort of holiday camp.

I spent some time managing a team of police officers who investigated crime which happened in prison establishments, and when I was setting that team up I had several meetings with the governors of the five prisons within our force area. I had guided tours of all of them, and was a regular visitor.

I can tell you without hesitation that they are hell holes, the kind of places where the vast majority of us would struggle to survive a week.
 
Billysboots said:
Whilst I’m not suggesting it is your view, there does nevertheless seem to be a widely held belief that prisons are some sort of holiday camp.

I spent some time managing a team of police officers who investigated crime which happened in prison establishments, and when I was setting that team up I had several meetings with the governors of the five prisons within our force area. I had guided tours of all of them, and was a regular visitor.

I can tell you without hesitation that they are hell holes, the kind of places where the vast majority of us would struggle to survive a week.
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That is how they should be.
They are a form of punishment.
I am all for rehabilitation for prisoners who are going to come back into society but those that are in for a full life term chuck in a hole and give them bread and water daily.
That’s it no exercise no meeting other people no visitors.

This is for extreme cases obviously, rather than the death penalty
 
PaulMdj said:
Absolutely, but if they are ever released they may do it again, were as the death sentence 100% prevents that.
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You could say that for petty crimes as well. Kill them and they won't do it again. It is not a sensible point of view.

When a murderer is considered a danger to the public he/she is never released.
 
Voyager EMH said:
You could say that for petty crimes as well. Kill them and they won't do it again. It is not a sensible point of view.

When a murderer is considered a danger to the public he/she is never released.
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Yet in reality we have seen people released and committing serious crimes again

And you can’t compare someone doing petty crimes with the sort of people bent discussed here
 
irip said:
That is how they should be.
They are a form of punishment.
I am all for rehabilitation for prisoners who are going to come back into society but those that are in for a full life term chuck in a hole and give them bread and water daily.
That’s it no exercise no meeting other people no visitors.

This is for extreme cases obviously, rather than the death penalty
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You have a common vengeance fantasy.
Brutal treatment or physical and mental torture, are things of the past. No prison officers should ever be required to mete out such treatment.
There is a line that must not be crossed when imprisoning people in the UK.
Your line is imaginary and will never be legislated for.
 
Hobbit said:
There’s no agenda to my question, in fact it’s a question I ask myself sometimes. Is your “every ounce says the killer(s) should be put down…” a subconscious desire for revenge, an eye for an eye?

I found myself very conflicted over Huntley’s murder. No one should die like that, and I had hoped he lived a long life behind bars but I didn’t regret he’s died.

It’s too complex a moral dilemma for me to process.
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Fair points, but I don’t think it’s a desire for revenge, but to be honest it’s difficult to get the words correct.

Sadly there is pure evil in this world and no amount of rehabilitation or punishing them in hell holes will ever change that.

Take Lee Rigby’s killers or other carrying out terrorist offences, ie, Borough Market attack, one group survived, the others were killed, we are now in the position of feeding and keeping alive 1 group whilst I doubt no tears were shed for the others.

I get the Police involved could suffer with mental health issues for taking a life just as much as there are probably Police Officers which would of happily taken out the others with lethal force.

I don’t believe many in this Country regret that the Borough Marker attackers weren’t taken alive, but at the same time they now believe the others should be locked up forever at public expense rather than be executed.

As you say very conflicted, but cases like this and child killers my moral compass is firmly over to the death sentence side.😵‍💫
 
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