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The Irish Trial

Arthur Wedge said:
What reason would be there for a club to adjust allowances on 4BBB
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Moaning from high or low handicappers combined with the fixed view that they know best.

Equally a Committee that only sees competitions from their own personal viewpoint (or of its most dominant member) not from that of the majority of those they serve.
 
D-S said:
Moaning from high or low handicappers combined with the fixed view that they know best.

Equally a Committee that only sees competitions from their own personal viewpoint (or of its most dominant member) not from that of the majority of those they serve.
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People will always moan - they did when it was Congu etc

Allowances were dictated back then (apart from scrambles )

If EG etc are confident in those allowances then stick to them- don’t give the clubs the ability to adjust
 
To repeat from earlier discussions...
The Rules of Handicapping state that the allowances in Appendix C are designed for medium sized fields with a typical distribution of handicaps; and adjusting allowances according to field size and distribution of handicaps is recommended, with guidance for doing so in the clarifications.
 
Arthur Wedge said:
People will always moan - they did when it was Congu etc

Allowances were dictated back then (apart from scrambles )

If EG etc are confident in those allowances then stick to them- don’t give the clubs the ability to adjust
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Couldn’t agree more.

This is very much the view I have got from administrators at County and Club level. It was certainly the reaction in a room full those involved when it was said last week. It has also been the feedback given to those in Handicapping management at EG.

However it appears to be what is going to happen.
 
wjemather said:
To repeat from earlier discussions...
The Rules of Handicapping state that the allowances in Appendix C are designed for medium sized fields with a typical distribution of handicaps; and adjusting allowances according to field size and distribution of handicaps is recommended, with guidance for doing so in the clarifications.
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This is from Golf Ireland explaining a the trial and the reasoning behind it. At no point do they suggest that it has to do with field size or handicap distribution or that they should be factors in changing the allowances.

Golf Ireland is set to launch a new campaign in the coming weeks, aimed at helping golfers and clubs fully understand the World Handicap System™ (WHS™).

Ahead of this initiative, golfers across Ireland may already start noticing one change, as new options relating to Playing Handicap™ allowances become available to clubs, introducing greater flexibility to club competitions.

The measure, which gives Clubs options to increase or decrease the Playing Handicap allowance in their competitions, is being rolled out following feedback from club officials and golfers, including through a tracking survey conducted by Golf Ireland in 2024.

While the options will be available from 1 April 2025, clubs will have ultimate discretion in whether they adopt a change – and may decide to retain the current Playing Handicap allowance for their club competitions. Likewise, a club may decide not to introduce a change immediately, but on another date following 1 April.

In singles counting competitions, the current 95% allowance for Playing Handicaps can be increased to 100%, or decreased to as low as 85%, at the club’s discretion. In this regard, the measure responds to feedback Golf Ireland has received through its annual tracking survey which strongly suggests that golf clubs want additional options to address local issues they might have with the application of the WHS, and that in a number of cases clubs have found that lower handicappers are struggling to compete in club competitions – and in some cases playing less competitive golf at club level as a result.

The change is being rolled out in Ireland with the agreement of the other Home Nations, England, Scotland and Wales, with a decision to follow ahead of the 2026 season on whether to roll it out across GB&I fully in 2026, potentially with additional options depending on feedback received.

The option to amend the Playing Handicap allowance can also be applied to four-ball competitions.
 
D-S said:
This is from Golf Ireland explaining a the trial and the reasoning behind it. At no point do they suggest that it has to do with field size or handicap distribution or that they should be factors in changing the allowances.

Golf Ireland is set to launch a new campaign in the coming weeks, aimed at helping golfers and clubs fully understand the World Handicap System™ (WHS™).

Ahead of this initiative, golfers across Ireland may already start noticing one change, as new options relating to Playing Handicap™ allowances become available to clubs, introducing greater flexibility to club competitions.

The measure, which gives Clubs options to increase or decrease the Playing Handicap allowance in their competitions, is being rolled out following feedback from club officials and golfers, including through a tracking survey conducted by Golf Ireland in 2024.

While the options will be available from 1 April 2025, clubs will have ultimate discretion in whether they adopt a change – and may decide to retain the current Playing Handicap allowance for their club competitions. Likewise, a club may decide not to introduce a change immediately, but on another date following 1 April.

In singles counting competitions, the current 95% allowance for Playing Handicaps can be increased to 100%, or decreased to as low as 85%, at the club’s discretion. In this regard, the measure responds to feedback Golf Ireland has received through its annual tracking survey which strongly suggests that golf clubs want additional options to address local issues they might have with the application of the WHS, and that in a number of cases clubs have found that lower handicappers are struggling to compete in club competitions – and in some cases playing less competitive golf at club level as a result.

The change is being rolled out in Ireland with the agreement of the other Home Nations, England, Scotland and Wales, with a decision to follow ahead of the 2026 season on whether to roll it out across GB&I fully in 2026, potentially with additional options depending on feedback received.

The option to amend the Playing Handicap allowance can also be applied to four-ball competitions.
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And I expect the other unions will issue similar "we are listening" comms when the time comes, using it as a pr exercise.
However, the detail is in their subsequent comms - and the rules!
 
This will lead to separate comps for high and low cappers imo.

75% a scratch handicapper will lose nothing
A high handicapper will lose a lot of shots so just won’t play.

Low men are not playing comp golf as much now.
We could all see this coming .
 
clubchamp98 said:
This will lead to separate comps for high and low cappers imo.

75% a scratch handicapper will lose nothing
A high handicapper will lose a lot of shots so just won’t play.
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I tend to worry this will happen. I think 85% was about right, 75% seems brutal.

It will be interesting to see if clubs that go harsher see participation numbers change, either up or down?
 
What would be good from the authorities is a degree of genuine transparency for all golfers to see.
What the modelled effect of different handicap allowances are and what the actual effects are after implementation.

Despite ordinary golfers compulsory funding if they belong to a club the different ruling bodies they are secretive with all their data and the modelling behind such things as PCC and accuracy of the rating systems.
A lot of hot air in this forum and in clubhouses around the country would be avoided with a less patronising and paternalistic attitude and greater openness.
 
Backache said:
What would be good from the authorities is a degree of genuine transparency for all golfers to see.
What the modelled effect of different handicap allowances are and what the actual effects are after implementation.

Despite ordinary golfers compulsory funding if they belong to a club the different ruling bodies they are secretive with all their data and the modelling behind such things as PCC and accuracy of the rating systems.
A lot of hot air in this forum and in clubhouses around the country would be avoided with a less patronising and paternalistic attitude and greater openness.
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Whilst I sort of agree with what you are saying, in order to get a full picture of what handicaps are winning what competitions would take a lot of data and that data has to be the right data. Do the clubs where high handicaps are perceived to be always winning have divisions? What percentage of club members/competition entrants at each handicap level? Have lower handicap entries fallen since WHS? Has the average handicap level of winners changed? You can get any selection of this (and much more) data and prove whatever you want.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
I tend to worry this will happen. I think 85% was about right, 75% seems brutal.

It will be interesting to see if clubs that go harsher see participation numbers change, either up or down?
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In summer we were lucky to get a slot on the sheet pre WHS!
We had 190+ players in the comps.

Now the sheet is never full you can choose when you want to play.

It’s not just low men it’s across the board.
Maybe comp golf is not as appealing to the newer golfers.
 
Neilds said:
Whilst I sort of agree with what you are saying, in order to get a full picture of what handicaps are winning what competitions would take a lot of data and that data has to be the right data. Do the clubs where high handicaps are perceived to be always winning have divisions? What percentage of club members/competition entrants at each handicap level? Have lower handicap entries fallen since WHS? Has the average handicap level of winners changed? You can get any selection of this (and much more) data and prove whatever you want.
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Yes I totally agree with this.
But most golfers will quote what they see at their own club.

This could be totally different to the one over the road.
It’s why I think the clubs need more control over their comps and not dictated to by others who won’t share their data and algorithms!
 
When we adopted WHS with far more freedom to submit general play cards it was always going to be the case that a percentage of golfers would play fewer, if any, organised competitions as there was no longer a need to play "qualifying" competitions to keep your handicap tracking.

I can't believe that EG weren't aware of this as they only had to look at America to see how things operate there. Fiddling around with percentages to try and get more people to enter club competitions (if that's the objective) is not going to make any significant difference.

It's disappointing from the perspective of club golf, but I can only see the trend continuing.
 
rulie said:
Just what we need, a bunch of "amateur" statisticians and data analysts writing about their results! Leave the data collection, sorting and analysis to the experts.
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What we have is a self electing organisation to which we all contribute not actually giving us any indication of what the data is, whether or not it is accurate,or even a statement of what the intended outcome is. There are millions of examples of self serving organaisations not allowing any external scrutiny and making an absolute horlicks of their function. We have absolutely no idea whether the experts are competent or not they don't provide any data at all. This is not a usually a sign of a well functioning organisation.
 
Crow said:
When we adopted WHS with far more freedom to submit general play cards it was always going to be the case that a percentage of golfers would play fewer, if any, organised competitions as there was no longer a need to play "qualifying" competitions to keep your handicap tracking.

I can't believe that EG weren't aware of this as they only had to look at America to see how things operate there. Fiddling around with percentages to try and get more people to enter club competitions (if that's the objective) is not going to make any significant difference.

It's disappointing from the perspective of club golf, but I can only see the trend continuing.
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I'm not sure if EG care much about handicap competition golf. As I understand their Sport England funding is based on participation. A GP round is equal to a competition round in these terms and if it is registered on their own platform so much the better. Their comms is always about how many handicap rounds there have been, not participation in competitions. This is of interest to clubs but not governing bodies.
 
Thank goodness for that.

We have large entries for some competitions with lots of higher handicappers. Being able to vary the allowance appropriately will enable fairer competition.

Like CR-Par, this area always seemed like EG trying to keep things simple at the expense of the right thing to do.
 
clubchamp98 said:
This will lead to separate comps for high and low cappers imo.

75% a scratch handicapper will lose nothing
A high handicapper will lose a lot of shots so just won’t play.

Low men are not playing comp golf as much now.
We could all see this coming .
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I do not play in Open 4bbb anymore, winning score is usually 48-50 points, main reason is that I am not competitive even with my A plus game, these games are usually on the Friday, Sat/Sun is the main event 36 hole comp.
 
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