The Elgin Marbles

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Not so sure why the Elgin Marbles have been in the news these last days but I say…Return Them.

I consider the question of ownership to be a moot point but in truth one that is rather irrelevant to considerations of the right or wrong of British Museum holding them. They have no place in, and have no relevance to, the ‘story‘ of the UK and the peoples of the UK, whereas they most certainly do for Greece and it’s people.

As a country we don’t need to sit feeling superior about our museums because, in part, they hold important stuff that is frankly nothing to do with us. It would be a magnanimous act and the right thing to do. Implications and precedence set for other artefacts - so be it.

Hand them back.
 

Lord Tyrion

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I believe ongoing discussions have been happening for years, perhaps they are coming close to an agreement. The reality is that most museum exhibits have been plundered from countries around the world and so museums are terrified that a trickle of returns would become a flood. That is not a reason to hold them though.

Perhaps we should also stop calling them the Elgin Marbles and revert to their original title, before Elgin spirited them away, The Parthenon Marbles.
 

WGCRider

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We should pat ourselves on the back for saving many of these artifacts, which is what happened in many cases.

Except not in this case. They may have been saved but they were stolen. Elgin lied to get access to the site. They claimed they were making casts to the statues to, you know, show the folks back home. But then, purely by accident, pieces just fell off. So they ONLY took these, hid them and shipped them to Malta. Then illegally imported them to England. But yeah, saved them.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Except not in this case. They may have been saved but they were stolen. Elgin lied to get access to the site. They claimed they were making casts to the statues to, you know, show the folks back home. But then, purely by accident, pieces just fell off. So they ONLY took these, hid them and shipped them to Malta. Then illegally imported them to England. But yeah, saved them.
Though I heard that the occupying Ottoman‘s werent bothered about them and happy to flog them to Elgin. Bit as I suggested I think that’s a moot point and somewhat irrelevant to the discussion today.
 

Slab

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I'm undecided

On the one hand there's no disputing their origin and the ownership dispute but is that enough?
On the other hand I'm thinking marble/rock not much difference, so it's these Elgin chunks this week and Gibraltar the week after, yeah... Maybe not
 

Mudball

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Except not in this case. They may have been saved but they were stolen. Elgin lied to get access to the site. They claimed they were making casts to the statues to, you know, show the folks back home. But then, purely by accident, pieces just fell off. So they ONLY took these, hid them and shipped them to Malta. Then illegally imported them to England. But yeah, saved them.

If we returned most things that we 'took' from the empire, then the British museum would be empty... but that is a different debate. Times have changed, so sending them home is a good thing. Hopefully they will stay there rather than fill the coffers of some local politician..
 

patricks148

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Except not in this case. They may have been saved but they were stolen. Elgin lied to get access to the site. They claimed they were making casts to the statues to, you know, show the folks back home. But then, purely by accident, pieces just fell off. So they ONLY took these, hid them and shipped them to Malta. Then illegally imported them to England. But yeah, saved them.
I think I read somewhere the Ottomans were using the Parthanon as a gunpowder store, but there weren't theirs to sell even they were sold.
 

PhilTheFragger

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If they weren’t “removed” at the time, I think it is fair to say that there is a good chance they would be rubble now.

But as others have said, times have changed and the Greeks should be encouraged to build their own museum for them so they can then be transferred back.

Having seen the Cairo Egyptology museum in 1993 and the total lack of any environmental or humidity control back then, we need to ensure that an appropriate facility exists to contain and preserve them
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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If they weren’t “removed” at the time, I think it is fair to say that there is a good chance they would be rubble now.

But as others have said, times have changed and the Greeks should be encouraged to build their own museum for them so they can then be transferred back.

Having seen the Cairo Egyptology museum in 1993 and the total lack of any environmental or humidity control back then, we need to ensure that an appropriate facility exists to contain and preserve them
Why should we be bothered…they aren’t ours. If the Greeks didn’t look after them and they crumbled or disappeared then the only real loss is suffered by the Greeks. What does the Parthenon and Ancient Athens actually really matter to us (I‘m being absolutist here as clearly such as Parthenon architecture and sculpture have wider cultural and historic interest beyond the shores of Greece…but it is still only interest). Besides…if we were that bothered about losing what can currently be seen in the BM we’d make replicas before returning them.
 

PhilTheFragger

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Why should we be bothered…they aren’t ours. If the Greeks didn’t look after them and they crumbled or disappeared then the only real loss is suffered by the Greeks. What does the Parthenon and Ancient Athens actually really matter to us (I‘m being absolutist here as clearly such as Parthenon architecture and sculpture have wider cultural and historic interest beyond the shores of Greece…but it is still only interest). Besides…if we were that bothered about losing what can currently be seen in the BM we’d make replicas before returning them.

Because we have a responsibility to history and because it’s the right thing to do

We aren’t going to unload a tipper truck at the base of the Acropolis and drive off ?
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Because we have a responsibility to history and because it’s the right thing to do

We aren’t going to unload a tipper truck at the base of the Acropolis and drive off ?
Yes we do…but it is the history of Ancient Athens and we must trust the Greek authorities to look after their own history, and so for me returning the stones to complete, as far as possible, the Parthenon‘s pediment freize is the right thing to do.
 

WGCRider

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Having seen the Cairo Egyptology museum in 1993 and the total lack of any environmental or humidity control back then, we need to ensure that an appropriate facility exists to contain and preserve them

A bit off topic, but that museum is so strange. It's like walking round a warehouse but you are stumbling over 3000 year old boats or 4000 year old dead bodies. Anywhere else in the world Tutankhamun's mask would be centre stage and there would be a long queue to see it. There it's just in a display case in a room - not even in the middle of the room.

Even further off topic, but perhaps my most strongly held opinion, I've travelled loads but Cairo is the second worst place on earth - a total disaster zone. Terrible people, terrible food, dirty, rip offs everywhere. Hate it! (The worst place on earth is obviously Norfolk)
 
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