Thatcher, history will show...

[Ross61]

Thatcher is the reason why our industries and utilities are no longer British owned. Thatcher is the reason we have no social housing stock and our children can't afford to move out of their parents home.
There are areas of the country, mainly in the north, that were allowed to just crumble because it suited her.
The main reason she won her second term in office was that she called the election to coincide with the anniversary of the Falklands war and rose the tide of all the appreciation toward the armed forces that secured the tiny little British outpost, that probably never have been taken in the first place if Britain had shown interest in keeping it and defending it. I was amongst many people, at the time, that did not know it was anywhere near Argentina.

 

[need_my_wedge]

Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader. I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right.

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.

I tend to shy away from political debate as I'm not good with arguing points, but this for me pretty much sums it up for me in a simple and concise way.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I will try and answer two posts in one and then go and get wet in the golf.

Scargill, he is another one that when his name is mentioned my bladder shall remain full if he is on fire, along with other lesser known Union men who used the strike for there own personal means, included in that that is financial gains. Google Neil Greatrex and Mick Stevens who have robbed miners funds of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Did you know Scargill wanted to buy the penthouse suite he was living in free of charge which was owned by the Union. He wanted to invoke a rule brought in by non other than Thatcher. It went to court and he lost the case. The greedy **** took his own Union to court.
Do not for one minute think that all miner supported Scargill or the breakaway Union the UDM. Ten of thousands of miners were between a rock and a hard place re Scargill and Thatcher. bullying and violence were rife from both the police ( mainly the Metropolitan) and pickets towards innocent miners who just wanted to work.
The miners who had there heads kicked in did not support Scargill

Re small companies going bust, don't know if they did so unlike some on this forum I won't argue against that point, But and using that point alone. Thatcher shut pit after pit after pit that was making tens of millions of pounds for the tax payer every year without subsidys. That is what turned a lot of miners against Thatcher. Some believed that what she was doing in shutting down loss making pits was correct but when there profit making pits were shut that's when a lot of miners turned against her.
Went to a photo exhibition launch at Mansfield Museum Friday night, it is on for a good month or so. Chris Upton photography ( check out his site ) took a load of photos and I was involved in helping him. Mark Spencer Tory MP for Newark and Sherwood was there to help launch it. Knob. He said we must not forget that having our own energy helped us win two world wars. Yeah right oh Mark. His words stuck in the throat of every miner there.

A few of my mates went down the pit and I will back up what tashyboy said about Nottinghamshire miners being between a rock and a hard place with Thatch and Scargill. It was never as black and white as some liked to portray it.

By the way tashyboy, have you read any of the Resnick detective series by John Harvey? Resnick is a Nottingham based detective and the books that are very good, especially if you are from round these parts me duck. You may especially enjoy Darkness Darkness which is in fact the last of the series. It's not a book just about the strike directly but uses it as a setting for the book and is a great read. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Darkness-Resnick-12-John-Harvey/dp/0434022926

 

[Hobbit]

Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader. I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right.

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.

That answer pretty much covers it for me.

As for the comment that she was uncaring, if some in her Cabinet had had their way Liverpool and its far, far left council of the day, would have been towed out into the Atlantic. Believe it or not if you wish but she argued that Liverpool needed support, irrespective of it would never be a bastion of Conservatism...

As to the industries she cast adrift; they, with the Unions that basically ran them, were bleeding the UK to death.

 

[Deleted member 18645]

From a political standpoint, she was the right person at the right time both on a national and international scale.

From a personal standpoint, I had the opportunity to meet her twice and cannot speak highly enough of her as a person. I saw her take time with the lowliest of staff at the House of Commons and was genuinely interested in their well-being and what they had to say.

I know others may disagree but if I ever had to vote for the greatest politician of my life-time, and I was born the day after Winston Churchill died, I would vote for Margaret Thatcher without hesitation.

 

[Robster59]

Thatcher came in at a time when the Unions were intent on running/ruining the country. There were strikes galore, productivity was down and we were making shocking quality goods as a result. Someone had to stand up to them to try and get the country back on track because it was a mess at the time.
BUT....
I lean to the left and after reading about how much the Unions helped the working man I also appreciate there is a place for representation of the workers. The trouble is that the Unions at the time had lost their roots and forgot that it's no use having a Union if there are no jobs.
Thatcher came in to sort out the Miners Union (or Arthur Scargill and his cronies if you want to be more precise). Scargill was on a power rush and would not move and neither would Thatcher. It was, in the end, a fight they would never win.
The problem is that she didn't stop there. Instead of trying to work with the Unions (and I was in ASTMS which was a moderate Union) she wanted them out.
The sale of the Public Utilities. What a fantastic piece of work. Getting people to buy shares in a company they already owned! How clever is that? And lots fell for it. Yes they got short term profit on the shares but then it was owned by private companies and didn't the energy prices just fly up as a result?
The Falklands Conflict saved her for her second term as she was way down in the polls before then. And the third term was just a disaster as she believed herself to be untouchable and always right. (Mind you, the same could be said of Blair's third term).

So was she good for the country? In my opinion, absolutely not. She helped to destroy a lot of our manufacturing and are in a poorer position as a result. Compare that with Germany where the Unions and Employees generally work together.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Only a few months ago I debated long and hard with Liverpoolphil that Maggie was a great leader. I lived through her rise and fall but "of course" I was wrong because Phil disagreed and, as we all know, he's always right.

For me, she was the "right person at the right time" and exactly what the country needed, yes she was harsh but Britain was going down the plug hole and her uncompromising attitude turned things around, but I do accept that there were winners and losers during that time.

Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes.

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country.

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.

 

[User20205]

Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes.

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country.

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.

I don't disagree (apart from the picking on a pensioner part)

I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 80's, and so parts weren't really a poster for 'tory' Britain......but on the flip side people up there did benefit, from house ownership etc


2 things I disliked. 1- the seemingly personal nature of her campaign against the traditional industries. she didn't have to relish it quite so much
2- her (their) creation of an individualistic, ego-centric culture. There is such a thing as Society

 

[MegaSteve]

Pure evil...

 

[Hacker Khan]

Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes.

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country.

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.

I agree with LP. And I feel a bit dirty saying that.

As a country we went too far in destroying the manufacturing industry (mostly based north of the Watford Gap) and relying on services/financial institutions (mostly southern/London based). Germany seems to be the model for how to have a good mix.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Great leaders unite. No one has ever, in this country, been as divisive as she was. LP gave a pretty good summing up in his post.

 

[chrisd]

Not once have I told you that you were wrong but i request that you stop with the constant snide remarks that you keep posting insuating as such

My opinion of thatcher is that she was good for the people who liked her but she also ripped families and the country apart

The countries industry was struggling and there was two roads to take - invest and try and boost it or sell it off and watch hundreds of thousands lose their livelihoods - the second option was chosen and families all over the country had their lives turned upside down and many were out of homes.

My family was ripped apart - uncles in the plane and ship building business lost their jobs and the impact from that was heartbreaking - and that was a story all over the country.

But the flip side is she believed the country could become a financial hub but based in London - that left a good amount of country in limbo

So whenever someone is asked their opinion about Thatcher - there will always be a split - one will think she was a great leader and one will think she was evil who ripped the country apart

With such a split I don't personally see how someone can ever be classed as a great leader.

You're entitled to you're opinion Phil - I'm out of this thread !

 

[MegaSteve]

I agree with LP. And I feel a bit dirty saying that.

As a country we went too far in destroying the manufacturing industry (mostly based north of the Watford Gap) and relying on services/financial institutions (mostly southern/London based). Germany seems to be the model for how to have a good mix.

Guessing you are not aware of just how much manufacturing occurred in London... Now, almost gone... Either because of or a consequence of Thatcher policies...

Why, we even made our own buses just a few miles away from where I sit...

 

[DCB]

The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.

 

[One Planer]

The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.

This is a very good point.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't disagree (apart from the picking on a pensioner part)

I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 80's, and so parts weren't really a poster for 'tory' Britain......but on the flip side people up there did benefit, from house ownership etc


2 things I disliked. 1- the seemingly personal nature of her campaign against the traditional industries. she didn't have to relish it quite so much
2- her (their) creation of an individualistic, ego-centric culture. There is such a thing as Society

...and as mentioned elsewhere I think this has led us to the culture of entitlement that we have today - and that exists across the social spectrum

 

[chrisd]

The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.

I was a bit hasty in saying I'd leave the thread

This post is exactly how I remember the era and I fully accept that she has galvanised opinion, for and against, but you really did have to live through it to see the wide picture. I quite accept that there were big winners and losers at the time but genuinely believe that, had the unions continued in the way they were going that the country was going well and truly down the tube and we all would have been in trouble

 

[Foxholer]

The downturn in our heavy industry started before Thatcher came to power. Having started an apprenticeship during Callaghans tenure I was amazed to see other lads who started their training around the same time, fail to progress beyond year 1 or 2 as their employers were slowly closing up shop. The Labour government of the time and the power mad unions probably did as much to end out manufacturing industry as the tories did in subsequent years. Who knows where we'd have ended up if the unions hadn't brought the labour government to it's knees and forced the general election in 79.

As has been said before, she was the right person at the right time.

I agree with pretty much all of this - though had/have no experience of the apprenticeship environment. Think Morris Marina and Rover SD1 as being the epitome of British engineering!

She achieved/implemented some really good things and also some pretty bad ones imo.

The Falklands war came at the right time for her, but not UK imo.

I happen to think the thing that eventually triggered her downfall (some time after she should have gone) - the Poll Tax - was actually a much 'fairer' tax than the previous Rates were!

 

[chrisd]

I agree with pretty much all of this - though had/have no experience of the apprenticeship environment. Think Morris Marina and Rover SD1 as being the epitome of British engineering!

She achieved/implemented some really good things and also some pretty bad ones imo.

The Falklands war came at the right time for her, but not UK imo.

I happen to think the thing that eventually triggered her downfall (some time after she should have gone) - the Poll Tax - was actually a much 'fairer' tax than the previous Rates were!

The poll tax was fair imo as a plan but when it came in, the downside was that me as a married man, with no kids at the time, found my council tax go up instead of the expected reduction.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

This is a very good point.

Sound post.
The [first] miners strike in the Heath government instigated the 3 day week. This forced many companies out of business.
The UK was in an awful state with Heath and Callaghan held to ransom by the then very powerful unions.
Thatchers first two terms put us back on track but then she started to believe her image and it all went dreadfully wrong.
I always wonder what would have happened to the UK with Hesaltine leading the Tories and David Owen leading labour.