swing comments welcomed

[dontfancythisputt]

Good afternoon all.

Just looking for any comments/advice from some of the expert panel on here regarding my swing.

There's are few bits that I'm working on at the moment through a course of lessons with the club pro, mainly keeping on plane, getting the hands ahead, or at least over the ball at impact, and not hanging back all in a bid to keep the flight down a bit. A bit of a work in progress.

I'm looking for any particular comments that may help with a very frequent and frustrating shank! I'm sure that either my arms are pushing out towards the ball or my weight is shifting forward (the impact frame does look like the club is close to the heel) but id be grateful for comments. Any other general swing comments also appreciated.

I haven't shanked it whilst in front of the pro so he is keeping to the few items mentioned at present he has said however to watch my weight doesn't move on to my toes and concentrate on hitting off the toe if the problem continues. (video before this advice and touch wood this is helping so far.)

The video is a little rough and I'm on a lunch hour so not in the best of gear. My tempo is a bit off on this video but other than that it is fairly true to my current set up and swing.

play off 11,
video is an 8 iron aiming at the 150 marker in the distance. Both shots were fairly straight hits.
hitting the ball fairly well at the moment but the shank is wrecking good rounds. I'm happy to put some work in to bigger changes if required.

hope video works, first attempt at this sort of thing.

thanks in advance

Ben





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guv1AWFB_ek

 

[the_coach]

The advice your PGA pro has given you, is good advice. He will be working with you on that plane going back so the plane coming down & through. It's the swing path that's giving you both the balance issues & the occasional sockets.

As there are a couple issues there in, in that the arms/club going back a little ways back inside.

So then the first move at transition is a ways outwards & over so the path in the downswing is steep.

If you pause the swing at start downswing you can see the steepness of the shaft, nearer to vertical, the clubhead more up over top of the hands.

So that makes the clubhead/shaft hands & handle, swing outwards first towards the ball/target line (instead of moving downwards first, right shoulder turning down towards the ground)

This right shoulder arms & club all moving outwards first is why your balance will often stray to the toes (our arms weigh about 15lbs each so that plus club going out in the swingmotion moves the balance points in the feet to the toes)

So with the outwards first then back to in swing path coming into impact, the path of the clubhead is swinging a ways leftwards is all part of why you get trouble with connection with the 'hosel'.

Taking plane aside for a moment there's a good motion back & through here, so am sure he'll have you in good shape as you say it takes time to change stuff.
But your 'sockets' are down to the current swing path issues your working on.

At the range put two balls down side by side around couple inches apart, using your normal address position & set-up (ie. dont set-up with a built in over-reach, this vid there's a bit of a reach for the ball a little ways too far away from it) address the ball furthest away from you, then make you backswing but come back to impact through the ball that's nearer to you (without contacting the ball you originally addressed)

What this helps with, is connection between body turn & arms, by keeping the arms nearer to you body coming back down into impact the ball nearest to you.
It's the arms moving outwards over the top that help to make the distance between yours arms & body increase & that's then moving the clubhead away from you too, so hitting the socket.

One thing most Tour Pros, elite ams will do when trying to incorporate change into the motion, is to do some block practice with say an 8i as you have here, but we'll combine lots of slow-mo drills to feel the new positions going back then very slow mo first move down to delivery, pause, then through to impact & follow through then pause, then through to finish, do this a number of times, before we step up to a ball. Spend some time doing this block, interspersed practice.

Then the swings made to a ball are done with the premise of being aware of those previous feelings/new positions but do this only swinging at 50%, so it's about a swing to feel the new sensations needed, not a swing about hitting the 8i your normal 8i distance.

You may well be doing all of this already. But you can't build new feelings/positions of plane etc while swinging at normal speed, everyone if they do this tends to fall back into what they are used to doing, just a natural consequence of swinging at normal speed.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Many thanks for the considered response. Much appreciated.

I confident I understand your comments and to be honest the start of the downswing was the first issue I noted. I was however unsure as to the value of this first move as to my untrained eye the swing path appeared to return close to the takeaway path halfway back down. I understand that you are saying that this path may look similar but is in fact an inch or two further away and more out to in than the takeaway path due to the balance loss caused by the initial downswing move errors. Just a few swings in front of a mirror have show me that a more down rather than out as a first movement with hands and arms is required

I will continue to follow the pros advice but this has been a very useful exercise.

One last query, is the position at the top suitable so I at least have an ok mid point to keep hitting with changes only between address and this top position, and then back to address, to firstly focus on?. To me it looks kind of ok as I know that when the club reaches parallel ( I get closer with the longer clubs) my hands are above shoulder height and I have a right elbow pointing at the ground.

Many thanks again.

 

[the_coach]

One last query, is the position at the top suitable so I at least have an ok mid point to keep hitting with changes only between address and this top position, and then back to address, to firstly focus on?. To me it looks kind of ok as I know that when the club reaches parallel ( I get closer with the longer clubs) my hands are above shoulder height and I have a right elbow pointing at the ground.

Many thanks again.

If you can pause vid at top before transition first move, you'll see your left arm is a good ways lower than your shoulder plane, so hands arms & club a little ways at your heel line (if you drew vertical line up from the heel line)

It gets to this top position because the first move back from the ball is a little ways too much inside.

So for a more neutral swing path a little steeper going back than now, you'd be bringing the club first move back straighter & not inside, it might well feel to you either very straight back, may even feel you're going back slightly outside the line, but only because you've got used to it coming a ways back too much inside to start.

So in effect the plane going back would be a little ways steeper, so at top the shaft would be more over top of your right shoulder.

From here then it's easier to make that first move downwards (not outwards) so then your arms closer to your body down to delivery position, right elbow close to right hip so the hands club more infront of your chest coming down which results in a more neutral swing path.
The club head coming a little ways from the inside to square before going back inside again on the throughswing.

Sure that your Pro will have a sequence of how he wants to rebuild the plane going back & coming back down.

But a more neutral swing path back would see a position at the top where the left arm echoes the shoulder plane line at top, then the shaft would be over top of right shoulder (one way to check if this is happening would be to simply make a backswing & just let go of the club a little at the top the shaft should drop to touch the shoulder. (if you left go of shaft at top on vid if would have missed your shoulder & fallen down your back, so a little ways flat & behind the back)

So, sure the Pro will be working to all of this, so you probably need to give that a little time.

But if you wanted to check and you have alignment rods (if not a club can be used)
Lay one down, club or rod starting from the middle of the stance right in front of the right toes thats running completely parallel to both the toe line & ball/target line.

When the club is taken away in the backswing the club is first parallel to the ground & it should be more or less right over top of the rod/club infront of the toes & parallel to the toe line, also so then parallel to the ball/target line. {At present in the vid the shaft of the club, clubhead would be pointing behind your legs some, it wouldn't at this parallel position one.(PP1)}

Second check point if simply the hands/wrists set as the turn continues to turn from this PP1 until the left arm is first parallel to the ground & shaft now around 90º to left arm, looking from here along the left arm to hands, the hands would appear to be opposite the middle of the chest & not the hands back more towards the heel line)

Then form here simply the shoulder turn is finished, the shaft would be over top of the right shoulder, the left arm plane would be more or less the same as the shoulder plane. So from a DTL view the left arm would cover the shoulder plane line, the shoulders wouldn't really be visible. (let go a little of the club here & it would meet the right shoulder)

All that then happens is the lead foot, leg, hip starts the transition bringing the hands arms club right shoulder downwards on a good more neutral plane into impact.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Great. Thanks again.

It really is something that you go to such trouble to give such detailed responses. Again much appreciated.

Im with you on the positions going back and I sure you put a video up recently with the two lads dressed in blue covering the parallel shaft/alignment rod work, so I will dig that back out. The position at the top is also clear to understand and easy to achieve in slow mo with the aid of a mirror so I can a least feel the right position.

I will continue to work with the pro during the lessons but your comments will give me great reference points to keep checking things against between range sessions.

Many thanks

Ben

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Duplicate deleted.

 

[the_coach]

Great. Thanks again.

It really is something that you go to such trouble to give such detailed responses. Again much appreciated.

Im with you on the positions going back and I sure you put a video up recently with the two lads dressed in blue covering the parallel shaft/alignment rod work, so I will dig that back out. The position at the top is also clear to understand and easy to achieve in slow mo with the aid of a mirror so I can a least feel the right position.

I will continue to work with the pro during the lessons but your comments will give me great reference points to keep checking things against between range sessions.

Many thanks

Ben

Yep, that vid is worth paying attention to. Work with your Pro & do the slow-mo work & drills he puts forwards to get those swing plane changes that over time will help the club delivery to impact for you so you lose those problem contacts.
Good luck with it.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Just small update on the progress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D086TqggIqg

The pro at the last lesson (last week) said that some progress had been made with the swing plane and with this last range session I was seeing some consistent strikes.

The pros current advice is to keep the tempo smooth so that I can drop the hands better from the top and keep working on taking the club away on what feels like the ball line for longer. - I assume this is to stop it coming on the inside to early.

I'm fairly happy with this last video although id like to get the hands a bit higher at the top. This does however feel very strange when put into the swing. I'm already feeling like I'm putting a loop in to the swing at the top as it is, and not sure if this is how it should feel, any one else feel this?. Video doesn't show the loop though which is weird as that's how it feels.

Breaking the downswing in to blocks as the coach suggest is useful as I can cure the shanks just by slowing the swing down so to feel each block position on the downswing. - doesn't look pretty and the distance is lost but it get things back in order quickly.

Small steps but hopefully in the right direction.

 

[the_coach]

The settings on the vid are set so only you can view it.

The drills, slow-mo to feel positions remember are just drills. Which you'd do at practice to feel the 'new' positions (as in the 'perfect swing' vid)
But then if hitting a ball you're at first in practice just swinging at 60% or so to be able to better feel what's happening but this should be a continuous swing motion at 60%. Which you intersperse, with the slow-mo hold position drills in which you shouldn't be hitting a ball.

You go from one to the other so you can get the hang of the new places you need to be, but remember the swing with a ball should be a continuous one. Then when you're feeling it better you increase the percentage of effort so speed in the swing to 70%, 80%.

A good working swing, is fluid, but only taking 80% to 85% speed (effort) at most, as that is what will deliver better contact more consistently than ever trying to swing flat out or hit it hard would ever manage.

 

[Maninblack4612]

The throwing the right shoulder onto an outside path at the start of the downswing is what 90% of average golfers do, it's just so natural to do it. I'm a frequent shanked and, recently, a lot of my shots have been going straight left. I discovered by videoing myself that I was making this move and, since eliminating it, I haven't had an unmentionable and hit very few left. I'm sure all of The Coach's advice is good, by this is, in my view, the most important.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Thanks for the comments.

hopefully this video will work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D086TqggIqg

I'm using the slow mo/slower practice swing drill for 2 or 3 swings then hitting the ball and repeating the process.

MIB, I am getting to your point, its all nothing at the moment, OTT = shank, on plane = good shot.

one way to go but the video and comments on here have helped make thing very clear.

 

[JustOne]

As there are a couple issues there in, in that the arms/club going back a little ways back inside.

So then the first move at transition is a ways outwards & over so the path in the downswing is steep.

You need to pay attention to the two lines above.

Here's a screen shot from both of your vids, notice where the club head is.... behind your arse

Watch this vid and pay special attention to the club head,

[video=youtube;6ECs4LH7R6U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ECs4LH7R6U[/video]

...it NEVER gets behind his bum (nowhere near in fact), it goes up steep enough so that he can flatten it on the downswing, yours goes the opposite way...too flat behind you so then you have to STEEPEN the downswing which is always going to lead to problems with ball striking. So far your 'new video' is no better than your old one - despite the outrageous swing rehearsal you now have in the new vid.


Oh yeah, you can also watch this one which might help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8crIFt786jg

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

I understand what your saying, no problem there, changing it is not so as easy however as I've had a flat backswing for many years.

I intend to sort the plane out once and for all though so your comments are very useful.

 

[the_coach]

Yep that vid worked. Realize it's a work in progress, couple of things to be thinking about.

As 'JustOne' has indicated, the club going back, still a little ways too much behind the legs, in the ways the shaft is pointing, so butt end of handle points across ball/target line so shaft pointing across the heel line.
So this still talks to my original comment about too much inside going back which at transition makes the first move out a ways over the top & a bit steep.
As you can see from the pics in 'JO's post #12' it's still going back inside, which is largely the issue that's giving all the inconsistent contacts, as once that early piece has gone a ways wrong it's very difficult to make the compensatory moves needed to get back on track from the top to impact consistently.
This speaks to why it really is worth persevering with changing the takeaway move from the get go.

Am sure you can do it but it will take time, but also real precision in monitoring what you are doing from what you feel you are doing is real important, that club on ground in the position they show you in the vid really is key to getting this down right, not going to help doing the drill without the checkpoint.

That this is what you find difficult I get, because of being a good ways used to what you've always done. But that really is why the drill would be a real help for you to change, but you have to be a good ways more precise in the way you approach carrying it out.

Going back to look at the drill from the guys "perfect swing" & looking at that PP1 {all PP1 means is it's the 1st time in the swing motion that the shaft is in a parallel position with both the ball/target line, the toe line & also parallel (horizontal) to the ground}

So if you look at the PP1 of the guy in drill relative to the club he has on the ground (if you going to use this drill you got to put the club down otherwise you have no reference to check if you're anywheres near getting it down good)

You can see then from a similar place in your drill picture that it's off a ways from the area it needs to be in. The reasons why, is when you are doing the drill you're both disconnecting the arms away from body by 'lifting' the arms up while not really making a body turn, but also with that arms lift away you're raising up out of posture some.



So the drill can help you a little ways better to achieve a better backswing plane, have another look closely at the motion in the drill in the video, so your arms stay connected as the body turn gets you to PP1 but also you need to stay in posture so don't get taller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMiZQo70-E

Best way if you're finding the 'connection' troublesome because of the 'arm lift aways' & 'stand up'.

Is to, while making this first move only, get a towel put it across chest & under arms, then in posture feel left shoulder left arm starts the turn until you can hit that PP1 position on regular basis. (need club/rod on ground in position to check it though.)

 

[dontfancythisputt]

Thanks again for the comments.

I think the penny is finally dropping.

Getting to the top without the club head going behind me feels very strange but I have a sense of far more room in which to drop the club back down from the top, it I start the downswing correctly it almost feels that im not moving my arms, they are just falling in to the space that I didn't have before. When completing the flat swing now I can feel the lack of room and my right shoulder and arms having nowhere to go but forward. I also note that the tension built when completing a flat swing means that I cant hold the position at the top easily without my right shoulder moving forward. A more on plane swing feels far more steady at the top and I can hold the position better.

I will keep going with the drills mentioned and the advice of the pro. Im finding that if I make 3/4 very slow practice swings, hitting the correct positions then I can follow this with 3 or 4 nice full strikes (very clean/straight hits) I will then start to drift back to my old swing plane and have to start over.

Interesting to note that its very easy to see the majority of pros at the open all starting the downswing in a similar manner, almost as if the club is being dragged down, or maybe that's just my thinking.

thanks again

 

[the_coach]

Thanks again for the comments.

I think the penny is finally dropping.

Getting to the top without the club head going behind me feels very strange but I have a sense of far more room in which to drop the club back down from the top, it I start the downswing correctly it almost feels that im not moving my arms, they are just falling in to the space that I didn't have before. When completing the flat swing now I can feel the lack of room and my right shoulder and arms having nowhere to go but forward. I also note that the tension built when completing a flat swing means that I cant hold the position at the top easily without my right shoulder moving forward. A more on plane swing feels far more steady at the top and I can hold the position better.

I will keep going with the drills mentioned and the advice of the pro. Im finding that if I make 3/4 very slow practice swings, hitting the correct positions then I can follow this with 3 or 4 nice full strikes (very clean/straight hits) I will then start to drift back to my old swing plane and have to start over.

Interesting to note that its very easy to see the majority of pros at the open all starting the downswing in a similar manner, almost as if the club is being dragged down, or maybe that's just my thinking.

thanks again

Great you've got some improvements going, the underlined a good feeling for you to have, getting to PP1 in good shape then continuing turn to top eventually put's the club 'behind you' on a good plane (back to the inclined hoop image)

Then as you've turned into the right hip socket against the inside of the right foot, still a little flex in the right leg, from top then you will feel that you now have all this space that you didn't have before so the right shoulder can turn downwards, left arm kinda feeling like it's falling down the chest.

In a ways if you didn't have a a club in the hands, & the left hand was open & straight, then the start down, transition having started from ground up, would be like delivering a sort continuos karate motion with the inside of the left armpit as the fulcrum, as the arm works down & the bottom edge of left 'karate' hand is working downwards. So nothing from the top, with the club/hands/arms/right shoulder is moving outwards towards the ball/target line.

 

[dsanders9944]

Hi Do u have a face on video also?

 

[dontfancythisputt]

no sorry.

I'll try and sort something out when I have mastered a few things.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5P7Ry955vg

bit of an update on the swing changes.

I've been working on the P1 position and I'm hopeful that that's getting somewhere (I still think I need to stay a bit more connected to the chest however) I'm also seeing a better strike pattern as a result of the inside path on the downswing and less of the over the top movement. Shanks are all but gone but I know immediately that I have come over the top when one occurs.

I cant seem to get the hands to stop coming inside immediately after P1 however, I feel like I'm picking the club up but the video still shows the club going behind me too far with the wrist rolling. This I think is still leaving the club a bit flat at the top with the hands still a bit low.

I have another lesson coming up but the pro was please that progress was being made at the last lesson.

All in all I'm please with how things are progressing but id like to get the hands a bit higher an closer to my head if possible. This is proving difficult at the moment though so any good drills would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[the_coach]

Difficult to see much well here, given that space in the bay is very limited it would seem, to be able to get the correct DTL camera/phone position which ideally would be from directly behind the hands at 90º & at hands at address height. Also the exposure given your in a dark area looking out to bright sunlight again makes it difficult.

Pretty impossible to see the PP1 position with any clarity also difficult viewing angle as the lens given its position messes with the angles some.

When the left arm gets to horizontal shaft at 90º, it appears to be in better shape now, hands seem more in line with the middle of your chest as they should be at this point.

From here it goes a little ways pear shaped. One point on this don't look to get your hands higher or nearer your head you'll lose width in the swing, so some ability to naturally create speed through impact, plus it will ensure the over swing & the little ways disconnection at the top which then in turn is always going to be an issue with timing in the downswing, as you somehow then have to get the arms/club connected back to the body rotation on the ways back to impact to get a solid strike, not a bit of a slap.

Would be better once you get to this left arm horizontal position try to feel that your shoulders/body turn just 'carry' your arms & club to the top, so when your shoulders reach a stop (around 90º because they can't & shouldn't rotate any more) it's very important your hands/arms/club stop too, at the moment the hands/arms/club carry on a ways which is why this swing with the iron is a ways too long.

If you can get this shoulders/body turn carrying the arms from left arm horizontal position, then you're in good shape to reach a good top of swing position that's not a ways past parallel, also your then more able to keep the right arm angle at 90º as a maximum, then you keep the swing width a ways better as there's no collapse of the right elbow.

The extra arm travel so club travel beyond parallel you have currently (ideally you'd want to stop a little ways short of parallel as its a ways better to keep the downswing sequence in a good timed order to impact) makes the right elbow fold too much so it's collapsing a little ways past 90º.

That's why its a ways better once you get to a good left arm horizontal position shaft at 90º, difficult to see exactly giving the angle it's shot at, but this position now looks to be in not bad shape at all.

To just then feel that shoulder/body turn 'carry' the arms/club connected to the shorter more 3/4 top position as you keep the right arm angle at the elbow to 90º so importantly maintain width, imagine a 'square box' sat on the top part of the right arm that stops the forearm & hands/club movement going past 90º.
(so then it's all a ways more connected, arms to body turn, so no extra independent motion back or lift with the arms/club making it all over swing a ways past parallel)

Although the 'extra' swing length past parallel, feels more powerful, in fact it has the exact opposite effect as it messes up the timing of a solid delivery down & through impact, & you in fact lose speed at impact compared with the shorter & more connected (body rotation to arms) swing motion.

There's a 'swing extender' swing aid, I think that's what it's called, that you put on the top part of the right arm that helps groove the feeling as it won't let that right arm elbow angle go past 90º.
If you can't get this feeling by imagining the 'square box' sat on the upper right arm, or have difficulty once the left arm gets to parallel with the shoulder/body carrying the arms to 3/4 top position, might be worth getting hold of one.