Someone please explain Scotland to me

[FairwayDodger]

Yep, that's what I'm led to understand too. The only reason Salmond wanted 16 -17 year olds to vote was the educated gamble on how they would vote.

Personally I think if they're old enough to pay taxes then they should get a say on who sets them. They shouldn't be used in an attempt to gerrymander the vote though.

I always felt that was the case. I have no issue with 16/17 year olds getting the vote but only giving it for the referendum was a highly cynical ploy. "Shameless" in fact, to borrow a quote the outgoing first minister.....

 

[c1973]

I always felt that was the case. I have no issue with 16/17 year olds getting the vote but only giving it for the referendum was a highly cynical ploy. "Shameless" in fact, to borrow a quote the outgoing first minister.....

Indeed. I felt it was shameful as well, but given I feel they should vote anyway I couldn't complain too much.

It would be interesting to see the result with them taken out. Purely academic of course, it doesn't matter now, but it would be good to see how it would have went with 'actual' (for want of a better word) voters.

 

[User62651]

Shameful and shameless? Really? Term of referendum were agreed by both sides, I would say given their enthusiasm and not being dyed in the wool party voters it was an inspiring thing to do, the UK first past the post general election system is way out of date because it makes so many people not vote, so any change to that antiquated system is good in my book.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Shameful and shameless? Really? Term of referendum were agreed by both sides, I would say given their enthusiasm and not being dyed in the wool party voters it was an inspiring thing to do, the UK first past the post general election system is way out of date because it makes so many people not vote, so any change to that antiquated system is good in my book.

Not disputing that but the failure to extend the franchise to all elections instead of just the referendum was quite a strange decision.

 

[williamalex1]

Not disputing that but the failure to extend the franchise to all elections instead of just the referendum was quite a strange decision.

You never know they might, after the success here in Scotland getting younger people involved.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On 16/17yr olds voting - very positive IMO. If their elder (over 18yr olds) voters are worried about the naivety of 16 and 17yr olds then they should darn well make sure that they themselves vote. Easy. And if they don't vote then they can't complain.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The primary as well as the high schools were all positively involved in the debate.
Over 8000 5th and 6th formers from most of the schools in Scotland took part in the Hydro debate.

I am all for 16 year olds voting in a general election.
If they are old enough to pay tax the should have a say in how it is spent.

 

[lex!]

I am English and I lived in Scotland for about 15 years and, apart from the weather and the midges and the horrible beer (cooking lager only), I loved it. The Barnett Formula sends a greater proportion of the UK government public spend to areas of the UK that need it most for logistical reasons, and Scotland is a big net gainer out of this where i think it's about £1600 per person per year that gets more public money spent than England. Apart from the central belt, Scotland is a largely a rural economy, and it costs more to fund, for example, public transport and hospitals and schools in rural areas. Similarly, it costs more for Morrisons to run their supermarkets in rural areas as distribution costs are higher, but they currently keep prices the same North and South of the border. Salmond was outraged when Morrisons told him that their prices would have to go up after independence as they would run different operations after the split; as ever, he couldn't cope with fact and bad news that hurt his position and started whingeing about bullying.

The referendum was a thumping rejection of Salmond and the SNP by the people. In the end, his vision of Utopia was not backed up by econoimc reality. How could he fund the reversal of the Barnet Formula? I think there was too much fear of a tax and spend revilution by the SNP.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am English and I lived in Scotland for about 15 years and, apart from the weather and the midges and the horrible beer (cooking lager only), I loved it. The Barnett Formula sends a greater proportion of the UK government public spend to areas of the UK that need it most for logistical reasons, and Scotland is a big net gainer out of this where i think it's about £1600 per person per year that gets more public money spent than England. Apart from the central belt, Scotland is a largely a rural economy, and it costs more to fund, for example, public transport and hospitals and schools in rural areas. Similarly, it costs more for Morrisons to run their supermarkets in rural areas as distribution costs are higher, but they currently keep prices the same North and South of the border. Salmond was outraged when Morrisons told him that their prices would have to go up after independence as they would run different operations after the split; as ever, he couldn't cope with fact and bad news that hurt his position and started whingeing about bullying.

The referendum was a thumping rejection of Salmond and the SNP by the people. In the end, his vision of Utopia was not backed up by econoimc reality. How could he fund the reversal of the Barnet Formula? I think there was too much fear of a tax and spend revilution by the SNP.

Thumping rejection is one description. Reality of it only being 5 votes in 100 switching sides is another.

You are right about the beer (back in the day)

 

[Ethan]

These English regional assemblies are a joke. Waste of money. Anyone who thinks they will bring anything other than hot air is deluded. The point of democracy these days isn't to let the hoi polloi make any decisions, it is to make them think they are making the decisions. More assemblies just means more politicians sticking more snouts in more troughs.

As for local decision making and accountability, local councils are among the least accountable bodies who make the worst decisions, least approved by their electorates and are the most corrupt. We don't need any more of those, thanks.

 

[Val]

The primary as well as the high schools were all positively involved in the debate.
Over 8000 5th and 6th formers from most of the schools in Scotland took part in the Hydro debate.

I am all for 16 year olds voting in a general election.
If they are old enough to pay tax the should have a say in how it is spent.

Most don't earn enough to pay tax.

 

[Val]

Shameful and shameless? Really? Term of referendum were agreed by both sides, I would say given their enthusiasm and not being dyed in the wool party voters it was an inspiring thing to do, the UK first past the post general election system is way out of date because it makes so many people not vote, so any change to that antiquated system is good in my book.

Labour and Conservative will never vote for change on this front though, if we changed to PR we will forever have coalition governments.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Most don't earn enough to pay tax.

One heck of a lot of the electorate don't pay any tax

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Labour and Conservative will never vote for change on this front though, if we changed to PR we will forever have coalition governments.

What if the UK citizens wanted PR, or do we always do as we are told my our politicians ?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

These English regional assemblies are a joke. Waste of money. Anyone who thinks they will bring anything other than hot air is deluded. The point of democracy these days isn't to let the hoi polloi make any decisions, it is to make them think they are making the decisions. More assemblies just means more politicians sticking more snouts in more troughs.

As for local decision making and accountability, local councils are among the least accountable bodies who make the worst decisions, least approved by their electorates and are the most corrupt. We don't need any more of those, thanks.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a devolved Scottish government has been very successful.
There is a lot of bad feeling from the English regions towards Westminster control. Do you think that a handful of, towing the party line, Westminster MP's have a better idea of how their region should be run than about 50 locally elected people.

 

[Ethan]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a devolved Scottish government has been very successful.
There is a lot of bad feeling from the English regions towards Westminster control. Do you think that a handful of, towing the party line, Westminster MP's have a better idea of how their region should be run than about 50 locally elected people.

I am not ignoring that at all, but the concept doesn't translate to a Yorkshire Assembly or a West Country Assembly just like that, and if you really think the Westminster parliament are going to give over large amounts of control and money, or that locally elected people have any great insight or ability to do something interesting and different with that money, then you don't know local government in England. It will be a talking shop at great cost and just add more snouts for the trough.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I am not ignoring that at all, but the concept doesn't translate to a Yorkshire Assembly or a West Country Assembly just like that, and if you really think the Westminster parliament are going to give over large amounts of control and money, or that locally elected people have any great insight or ability to do something interesting and different with that money, then you don't know local government in England. It will be a talking shop at great cost and just add more snouts for the trough.

hmmmm not so sure about that!

I worked in local Government in England for 15 years and I can tell you that the Councillors that I worked with were better educated and more in touch with the people and business than the local MP. As well as an MP he was also a consultant to three companies so he was basically part time. At that time the Councilors only received expenses.

 

[delc]

I am not ignoring that at all, but the concept doesn't translate to a Yorkshire Assembly or a West Country Assembly just like that, and if you really think the Westminster parliament are going to give over large amounts of control and money, or that locally elected people have any great insight or ability to do something interesting and different with that money, then you don't know local government in England. It will be a talking shop at great cost and just add more snouts for the trough.

Scotland already has a very expensive talking shop with elected MSP's who have a say in Scottish affairs. On top of that they also have elected Westminster MP's who can legislate on purely English affairs. Hardly seems very fair when we are also subsidising Scotland via the Barnett formula, which even its author Lord Barnett thinks is now unfair! :mmm:

 

[williamalex1]

Scotland already has a very expensive talking shop with elected MSP's who have a say in Scottish affairs. On top of that they also have elected Westminster MP's who can legislate on purely English affairs. Hardly seems very fair when we are also subsidising Scotland via the Barnett formula, which even its author Lord Barnett thinks is now unfair! :mmm:

If Scotland really is such a drain on the UK economy why won't Westminster just let us go completely independant. ?????

 

[delc]

If Scotland really is such a drain on the UK economy why won't Westminster just let us go completely independant. ?????

Maybe it's considered worthwhile to keep the UK intact. The Scots now get double representation in both the Scottish Government and Westminster, which we English don't get!