Slightly miffed at myself

[Tashyboy]

Last year was a very busy golf year, we seemed to accumulate 4ball vouchers left right and centre.

Gradually got through them all bar one, 4 ball voucher for Harleyford GC near Marlow, Tyrrell Hatton’s home course.

I thought it expired at the end of October and had booked a date next Sunday afternoon, dug out the voucher yesterday to find it expires on Tuesday 1 October.

Entirely my fault, I claim full responsibility, anyway I phone Harleyford who are unwilling to extend the term of the voucher even for 5 days. Which they are within their rights to do. So I cancelled the booking.

And then it got me thinking,

What would it have cost Harleyford to be a tiny bit flexible? Answer....nothing.

What have they lost as a result? Well obviously
Revenue from 4 lunches, I always buy a course guide and a marker, plus a drink afterwards.

But the biggest thing they have lost is goodwill in a challenging market.

I won’t be rushing to play there anytime soon

This was exactly my point a couple of months ago when I played Chesterfield. I booked a tee time for four, turned up and couldnt find the paper. I was gutted. Went Into club shop and they said no dramas. Off you go and play. I was over the moon. I could not recommend that club enough. Yes it was my fault, but we are human. With Fraggers case they went in the opposite polar direction. Me, they can shove it in future.

 

[ADB]

Poor by the Club, very short sighted approach to the situation.

 

[Slab]

Poor by the Club, very short sighted approach to the situation.

Not sure we've anything like the info required to reach that kind of conclusion but would be interested in your thoughts

 

[Slab]

This was exactly my point a couple of months ago when I played Chesterfield. I booked a tee time for four, turned up and couldnt find the paper. I was gutted. Went Into club shop and they said no dramas. Off you go and play. I was over the moon. I could not recommend that club enough. Yes it was my fault, but we are human. With Fraggers case they went in the opposite polar direction. Me, they can shove it in future.

This seems to be how a lot of matters are ‘resolved’ these days, but since when did ‘throwing someone else's money at a problem to make it go away’ equal ‘good customer service’ ?

 

[Papas1982]

I think as you’ve fully accepted the fault for the issue, you’re not being harsh at all expecting a little good Will.

If the scenario was an voucher expiring in April and someone tried to blag a summer round I could understand their reluctance. But as has been said the course won’t be bust now and they lost out on the money you’d have spent this time, plus potential revisits.

For most businesses getting the first sale is a lot easier than the second, it appears they’ve blown any chance of either here. Naive imo.

 

[Papas1982]

This seems to be how a lot of matters are ‘resolved’ these days, but since when did ‘throwing someone else's money at a problem to make it go away’ equal ‘good customer service’ ?

How have the course thrown money away. Unless you’re taking the spot at a name packed course. An unsold green fee is worth the same as a free round. The difference is the free round may get money spent after, the unsold green fee gains no extra revenue.

 

[ADB]

Not sure we've anything like the info required to reach that kind of conclusion but would be interested in your thoughts

Not sure what more information we need?
Voucher was held, Fragger admitted mistake on date, Club refused extension...rules is rules the Club were within their rights, but would it really have caused an issue if this was extended for 5 days, the voucher is hardly legal tender- just an arbitrary date typed on a piece of paper.
Fragger's 4-ball would hardly make or break the financial success of the Club, but it's the underlying message that 'you are not welcome' that was disappointing in this instance when they had a chance to really make a difference to a visitor experience which, no doubt, Fragger would have appreciated.

 

[IanM]

Actually, the message isn't "you're not welcome" it's "We are inflexible, have a poor customer service ethos and don't understand marginal revenue!"

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Actually, the message isn't "you're not welcome" it's "We are inflexible, have a poor customer service ethos and don't understand marginal revenue!"

Agreed. A lads day out with a nominated driver, it could easily have been breakfast, lunch, a couple of pints each and possibly a couple of sales in the Pro shop. But they will never know now.
Technically they are correct but they are also very short sighted.

 

[Slab]

How have the course thrown money away. Unless you’re taking the spot at a name packed course. An unsold green fee is worth the same as a free round. The difference is the free round may get money spent after, the unsold green fee gains no extra revenue.

Uh, where are folks getting all the info about whether posters have paid anything for their voucher and also whether the course even charged anything for the voucher in the first place
Neither Tashy nor Phil have said how they came by the voucher or if the club charged for it


Also to clarify I didn't say the club threw money away, I said they threw money at the problem to make the problem go away and I'm suggesting this is not necessarily a demonstration of good customer service
(the problem: a hairy faced bloke standing in the pro-shop with a tale of woe about a misplaced voucher, solution; just give away a 4 ball green fee)

Once this becomes the 'norm' for dealing with this problem what do you think will happen to the cost of a 4-ball green fee?

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Never understood why some clubs only support the captains charity and dont issue charitable vouchers, never could see a downside of it ie, Visitors to the club, some extra revenue, perhaps more green fees in the future, maybe future members etc

After reading this thread, it has changed my mind. The bad publicity, comments and the naming on this thread, I can fully agree with those clubs stance, 'as it is not worth the risk of bad publicity', and as it is likely this was a voucher given away to a good cause and as such the club have not done anything wrong.

Just think if all clubs did not issue charitable vouchers due to potentially bad publicity, good causes such as H4H would have none to auction off and would not raise such funds.

 

[Slab]

Not sure what more information we need?
Voucher was held, Fragger admitted mistake on date, Club refused extension...rules is rules the Club were within their rights, but would it really have caused an issue if this was extended for 5 days, the voucher is hardly legal tender- just an arbitrary date typed on a piece of paper.
Fragger's 4-ball would hardly make or break the financial success of the Club, but it's the underlying message that 'you are not welcome' that was disappointing in this instance when they had a chance to really make a difference to a visitor experience which, no doubt, Fragger would have appreciated.

As i mentioned in post 3 i think. to me it makes a difference if the club charged full whack for the voucher or if it was one of a series given away for free

 

[IanM]

After reading this thread, it has changed my mind. The bad publicity, comments and the naming on this thread, I can fully agree with those clubs stance, 'as it is not worth the risk of bad publicity', and as it is likely this was a voucher given away to a good cause and as such the club have not done anything wrong.

...the thing is, if if this their culture and approach, they are probably getting worse publicity through other means!

I once (after a bit of a row) did some work with a former (propitiatory) club I plated at to get them to work out a rough percentage of visitors who used the bar/pro shop - and then what the average spend per tee time was... they were shocked/surprised/delighted. Basic stuff... their business is to maximise profit, not to enforce voucher dates!

Would this stop me playing there? No.
Does knowing a club supports the Forum H4H make me feel better about them and give them good publicity? Yes.

 

[Imurg]

The voucher was acquired by a charity thing that Fragger does called Radio Christmas
It was auctioned off along with other things ( our 4 ball at Stoke Park was another) in aid of the charity.

It does seem a little inflexible for the club to take the stance they have.
What would it have cost them to extend by a few days..?
Well, I've played there before and it's a decent track but I'm not convinced I want to go back now.
We were booked in for about 1pm so we'd have probably had lunch and a couple of beers plus a quick drink at the end.
We've lost the money, they haven't, but they haven't gained anything and in fact have lost goodwill.....
You pays your money..............


And Fragger loses it!

 

[Papas1982]

Uh, where are folks getting all the info about whether posters have paid anything for their voucher and also whether the course even charged anything for the voucher in the first place
Neither Tashy nor Phil have said how they came by the voucher or if the club charged for it


Also to clarify I didn't say the club threw money away, I said they threw money at the problem to make the problem go away and I'm suggesting this is not necessarily a demonstration of good customer service
(the problem: a hairy faced bloke standing in the pro-shop with a tale of woe about a misplaced voucher, solution; just give away a 4 ball green fee)

Once this becomes the 'norm' for dealing with this problem what do you think will happen to the cost of a 4-ball green fee?

Even if the green fee was gifted for free. They will have made money on the by way of them spending in clubhouse and potentially returning.

They also didn't lose the voucher. They simply didn't quote use it in time.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

...the thing is, if if this their culture and approach, they are probably getting worse publicity through other means!

I once (after a bit of a row) did some work with a former (propitiatory) club I plated at to get them to work out a rough percentage of visitors who used the bar/pro shop - and then what the average spend per tee time was... they were shocked/surprised/delighted. Basic stuff... their business is to maximise profit, not to enforce voucher dates!

Would this stop me playing there? No.
Does knowing a club supports the Forum H4H make me feel better about them and give them good publicity? Yes.

All I am saying is that it is bad form to name/shame a golf club, when they have given the voucher for free and for a good cause. I now understand another good reason why a club should not issue them(other than the number of requests they receive or only supporting the captains charity) from this thread.

I fully understand the thread and if the OP had not name/shamed the club, then it is an interesting thread and many arguments for/against what the club did and personally would have found it to be an interesting thread and would have posted very differently if it had been.

I 100% disagree with naming/shaming the club (the OP in fact went a bit further in his opening post than that and made sure the club was fully described).

Just hope these kind of name/shame internet threads/posts do not stop clubs issuing good cause vouchers, as I believe in supporting good causes and the people/companies that supply stuff to charities for free.

PS I did look on Tripadiviser/top100/golfshake, when this thread was started and the clubs feedback seemed pretty good.

 

[Slab]

Even if the green fee was gifted for free. They will have made money on the by way of them spending in clubhouse and potentially returning.

They also didn't lose the voucher. They simply didn't quote use it in time.

Maybe I'm giving clubs too much credit for their ability to maximise revenue but look at the bigger picture (assuming a freebie voucher is not used in the correct time)

I’ll guess that at any desirable course barely a week goes by without getting yet another ‘begging email’ asking for a free green fee or two or three etc (the ‘askers’ reckon that an unused tee-time is a tee-time wasted and has no value so why not give it to me, but do they have the same thought process for an unused airline seat) Anyway it means there’s a sizeable amount of freebie vouchers in circulation at any one time for a given course

However that’s not really how it works, but the club will want to help as many good causes as they can, so they issue freebie vouchers but there’s going to be limitations (and T&Cs which I’d doubt any one objects to when receiving the vouchers?)

Clubs need to consider other things too though…

Members (rightly) want their tee access protected so the club must limit the tee times allocated to paid visitors slots & for freebie voucher redemption
Freebie vouchers usually carry extended use-by date & so they take away the potential revenue from the limited number of paid visitors slots the club can afford to offer to non-members, so the club could lose money each week until the vouchers in circulation are redeemed
Freebie Vouchers are handed out periodically with rolling end dates & will only work correctly within the framework of available tee times that are divided between members, paid visitors and freebie vouchers and it follows they must be redeemed within the planned for/expected time period too

Every person that doesn’t redeem a freebie voucher in due time has potentially cost the club money in missed visitor green fee and that cost may be compounded if the club then extend the use-by date to allow a freebie voucher to be used after the expiry date when other vouchers/visitor green fees could be redeemed/collected instead (remember all because someone said ‘go on please, it’s for charity!)

Airlines oversell seats knowing there will be cancellations etc and accept the flack when it goes wrong.
A club can factor a ratio of unused freebie vouchers into their calculations too based on historical data but they cannot find themselves in a situation where members are pissed because the club let one or more 4-balls out beyond their use by date on a free tee time which meant a member had to wait or a visitor green fee could not be collected because the time was instead given to a ‘forgetful’ freebie voucher bearer




edit:
For what it’s worth I would allow an absent minded golfer to extend a redemption date of a freebie voucher, but the expiry date is not the only thing that’s changed. Other T&C's have now changed too and the tee times will be restricted to those that never sell out/get used
That way the club have done their bit by extending the date when they didn’t have to and the 4-ball still get their game… & maybe the inconvenience/penance makes them a bit more careful in future, everyone wins

 

[Papas1982]

Maybe I'm giving clubs too much credit for their ability to maximise revenue but look at the bigger picture (assuming a freebie voucher is not used in the correct time)

I’ll guess that at any desirable course barely a week goes by without getting yet another ‘begging email’ asking for a free green fee or two or three etc (the ‘askers’ reckon that an unused tee-time is a tee-time wasted and has no value so why not give it to me, but do they have the same thought process for an unused airline seat) Anyway it means there’s a sizeable amount of freebie vouchers in circulation at any one time for a given course

However that’s not really how it works, but the club will want to help as many good causes as they can, so they issue freebie vouchers but there’s going to be limitations (and T&Cs which I’d doubt any one objects to when receiving the vouchers?)

Clubs need to consider other things too though…

Members (rightly) want their tee access protected so the club must limit the tee times allocated to paid visitors slots & for freebie voucher redemption
Freebie vouchers usually carry extended use-by date & so they take away the potential revenue from the limited number of paid visitors slots the club can afford to offer to non-members, so the club could lose money each week until the vouchers in circulation are redeemed
Freebie Vouchers are handed out periodically with rolling end dates & will only work correctly within the framework of available tee times that are divided between members, paid visitors and freebie vouchers and it follows they must be redeemed within the planned for/expected time period too

Every person that doesn’t redeem a freebie voucher in due time has potentially cost the club money in missed visitor green fee and that cost may be compounded if the club then extend the use-by date to allow a freebie voucher to be used after the expiry date when other vouchers/visitor green fees could be redeemed/collected instead (remember all because someone said ‘go on please, it’s for charity!)

Airlines oversell seats knowing there will be cancellations etc and accept the flack when it goes wrong.
A club can factor a ratio of unused freebie vouchers into their calculations too based on historical data but they cannot find themselves in a situation where members are pissed because the club let one or more 4-balls out beyond their use by date on a free tee time which meant a member had to wait or a visitor green fee could not be collected because the time was instead given to a ‘forgetful’ freebie voucher bearer




edit:
For what it’s worth I would allow an absent minded golfer to extend a redemption date of a freebie voucher, but the expiry date is not the only thing that’s changed. Other T&C's have now changed too and the tee times will be restricted to those that never sell out/get used
That way the club have done their bit by extending the date when they didn’t have to and the 4-ball still get their game… & maybe the inconvenience/penance makes them a bit more careful in future, everyone wins

I'd say there's as much hypothetical problems there as there were apparent presumptions by others you protested to.

Surely if the tee time was available then the club were willing to sell it, so their efforts to honour their current members is imo a red herring.

I agree that they aren't at fault at all for the mistake, but feel it's poor service not to attempt to offer an alternative.

Im by no means someone who believes the customer is always right. But think its simply short sited business sense.

As this thread has shown though. They (the course) are the ones that potentially lose out as people have vented about them in one way another. Again, not something I'd necessarily have done if I'd been at fault.

 

[Slab]

I'd say there's as much hypothetical problems there as there were apparent presumptions by others you protested to.

Surely if the tee time was available then the club were willing to sell it, so their efforts to honour their current members is imo a red herring.

I agree that they aren't at fault at all for the mistake, but feel it's poor service not to attempt to offer an alternative.

Im by no means someone who believes the customer is always right. But think its simply short sited business sense.

As this thread has shown though. They (the course) are the ones that potentially lose out as people have vented about them in one way another. Again, not something I'd necessarily have done if I'd been at fault.

I'd agree with you which is why support cant be thrown behind either camp (equally nor can the actions of either be frowned upon)

 

[GB72]

No right or wrong answer here. Appreciate that the course donated a 4 ball to charity and that is a wonderful thing and should be encouraged (hence I am not a fan of naming the course here and this topic could have run its course without knowing the club involved). That said, donating to charity also has a promotional element to it. Yes it is great to give but the club, in return, can expect some promotion as well both from the auction and from the people spreading the word about how they enjoyed the course, food, facilities etc. By not extending, the course has lost much of the promotional benefit of making the donation. Yes, I know it is cynical and most places will say they do it purely for the charity but many businesses look at the marketing element of making such donations as well as just the donation (having tried to get items for such events, it is, remarkably, so much easier if you have confirmed media following for the event for example).

So, to a certain extent, the club has shot itself in the foot if the were looking for a bit of promotion as well as just doing a good deed.