Simon Cowell

pauldj42 said:
How long would you say a Band has to be around before you would say they are established or accepted?
Not my taste, but Westlife were signed by SC in 1998, still going and big fanbase, some of the big indy bands from the 80's and 90's have been and gone.
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As always in these things there are no definitive rules. Westlife (possibly the biggest karaoke act ever), riding on the coat tails of Boyzone, had a good innings until disbanding a few years ago.

Cowell's shows have also unearthed several good artists (Subo and Leona Lewis) but by and large most have been short term here today gone tomorrow 5 minute wonders.

The most peculiar of the lot being 1D who weren't even group when the composite parts pitched up a few years ago. Yet they are being mentioned in the same breath as The Beatles now.

Anyone subscribing to this theory, in the context of artistic integrity, needs their bumps felt, and it just goes to show the power of Cowell's hype engine.
 
JohnnyDee said:
As always in these things there are no definitive rules. Westlife (possibly the biggest karaoke act ever), riding on the coat tails of Boyzone, had a good innings until disbanding a few years ago.

Cowell's shows have also unearthed several good artists (Subo and Leona Lewis) but by and large most have been short term here today gone tomorrow 5 minute wonders.

The most peculiar of the lot being 1D who weren't even group when the composite parts pitched up a few years ago. Yet they are being mentioned in the same breath as The Beatles now.

Anyone subscribing to this theory, in the context of artistic integrity, needs their bumps felt, and it just goes to show the power of Cowell's hype engine.
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Or should we accept times have changed, my favourite genre amongst many is Motown but the truth is, the majority of Motown artists and groups were manafactured by Berry Gordy, I totally see the point about ITV, just think it if wasn't SC it would be someone else just as bad, ITV wouldn't air these programmes if they didn't make money. Can't really blame some of these kids chancing there arm.
 
pauldj42 said:
Or should we accept times have changed, my favourite genre amongst many is Motown but the truth is, the majority of Motown artists and groups were manafactured by Berry Gordy, I totally see the point about ITV, just think it if wasn't SC it would be someone else just as bad, ITV wouldn't air these programmes if they didn't make money. Can't really blame some of these kids chancing there arm.
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As another fan, you can argue that Motown was probably the start of the manufactured bands trend. I'd contend that the difference between Berry Gordy and Simon Cowell is that Berry Gordy's factory turned out some absolute classics, and music that 50 years on people are still requesting from DJ's now. Simon Cowell seems to have produced stuff that most people with any musical taste never wanted to hear in the first place & probably won't be requested (or even remembered) 5 years later, never mind 50.

As regards Subo, one of my favourite pieces of television is watching his patronising tone to her wiped off his smug little face as she started singing. Priceless.

I do wonder if we will ever see the likes of real groups such as the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Genesis, Queen or Dire Straits, or artists such as Elton John, Tina Turner or Rod Stewart again; all artists or bands who have made it on their own merit and whose contribution and music is still remembered today. Today's instant gratification society seems to lap up Cowell's dross. The only question to be answered for me is whether he and his ilk are the cause, or merely chancers taking advantage of the effect?
 
Blue in Munich said:
As another fan, you can argue that Motown was probably the start of the manufactured bands trend. I'd contend that the difference between Berry Gordy and Simon Cowell is that Berry Gordy's factory turned out some absolute classics, and music that 50 years on people are still requesting from DJ's now. Simon Cowell seems to have produced stuff that most people with any musical taste never wanted to hear in the first place & probably won't be requested (or even remembered) 5 years later, never mind 50.

As regards Subo, one of my favourite pieces of television is watching his patronising tone to her wiped off his smug little face as she started singing. Priceless.

I do wonder if we will ever see the likes of real groups such as the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Genesis, Queen or Dire Straits, or artists such as Elton John, Tina Turner or Rod Stewart again; all artists or bands who have made it on their own merit and whose contribution and music is still remembered today. Today's instant gratification society seems to lap up Cowell's dross. The only question to be answered for me is whether he and his ilk are the cause, or merely chancers taking advantage of the effect?
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I believe it's an age/time thing, record sales for Little Mix, 1D etc outstrip the groups you mention so on sales it makes them bigger, certainly not in the same field musically imo, as for 5/10/50 years time, who knows,
It would be interesting to see how many 15-25 yr olds could actually name a Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Genesis, Queen or Dire Straits song, I reckon we'd be shocked.
On the flipside, without Cowell we'd probably never heard of Susan Boyle, Paul Potts, IL Divo etc say you could say he's actually helped other Genres.
 
The big problem is that because of his unique position Cowell is able to invent the next big thing and then give it wall to wall advertising and priceless promotion through his TV shows.

I really do despair. 1D are a cobbled-together bunch of prancing puppets. The Beatles were a truly gifted 'band' of real musicians who had ability, talent and who worked their backsides off to get to (rightly) the position of the best pop band ever.

There is no valid comparison to be made between the two other than perhaps by the popular tabloid press and low rent Cowell-friendly media organisations.
 
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JohnnyDee said:
As always in these things there are no definitive rules. Westlife (possibly the biggest karaoke act ever), riding on the coat tails of Boyzone, had a good innings until disbanding a few years ago.

Cowell's shows have also unearthed several good artists (Subo and Leona Lewis) but by and large most have been short term here today gone tomorrow 5 minute wonders.

The most peculiar of the lot being 1D who weren't even group when the composite parts pitched up a few years ago. Yet they are being mentioned in the same breath as The Beatles now.

Anyone subscribing to this theory, in the context of artistic integrity, needs their bumps felt, and it just goes to show the power of Cowell's hype engine.
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No they are not in terms of musical and cultural impact, but if they are I assume it is in terms of fan adulation. And again there have always been bands that do the same thing as 1D have over the years, and have millions of fanatical screaming mostly young female fans. It's just that as popular music has become more entrenched within mainstream cultural media plus the rise of social media, it seems more prevalent.

Also I have little time for people moaning about 'proper' bands and manufactured bands. I bow to no one in my love of Radiohead, Sigur Ros, Elbow or Godspeed You Black Emperor, but to a young fan 1D are as real as those bands are to me. The fact that they do not play guitars or write all their own songs is neither here nor there. There are still plenty of bands that do that who are huge (U2, Foo Fighters, Coldplay, Arctic Monkeys etc etc) but 1D are playing a vital role by getting young kids into music. As I said before, there is now much easier access to many different types of music than there had ever been and music is in a very healthy position, especially on the live circuits.

I am actually taking my daughter to see 1D in October and to be honest I am actually really looking forwards to it. Not purely from a musical perspective (although they do have some decent 'pop' songs) but just to experience 1000s of fans screaming at a band. As to me that is pop music at its purist, that is the thrill of it pop, and give me that over a bunch of old blokes getting mildly excited over a band whose best days were 20 years ago churning out the old songs, or the latest landfill indie band trying to sound like The Velvet Underground any day.
 
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JohnnyDee said:
The big problem is that because of his unique position Cowell is able to invent the next big thing and then give it wall to wall advertising and priceless promotion through his TV shows.

I really do despair. 1D are a cobbled-together bunch of prancing puppets. The Beatles were a truly gifted 'band' of real musicians who had ability, talent and who worked their backsides off to get to (rightly) the position of the best pop band ever.

There is no valid comparison to be made between the two other than perhaps by the popular tabloid press and low rent Cowell-friendly media organisations.
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Think you'll find 1D and others of their ilk work their arses off more than most bands in the past ever did. You may not class it as 'proper musical work', but you would be surprised at the amount of work those types of bands do to keep up their profile.
 
Yea, me too. The Beatles, to me and millions of others, were for the most borderline unlistenable and were so big because they did what they did first and with good marketing.

They were in many ways the boy band of their era.
 
Hacker Khan said:
Think you'll find 1D and others of their ilk work their arses off more than most bands in the past ever did. You may not class it as 'proper musical work', but you would be surprised at the amount of work those types of bands do to keep up their profile.
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I was talking about the work put in in the Beatles rise to fame which took years and endless gigging both here and in Germany in grotty dumps.

1D undoubtedly work hard now, I'm sure they have to, however they are nothing more than a construct cobbled together by SC, and successful beyond both his and their own wildest dreams I would venture to suggest.

The OP was more about SC's unhealthy (IMO) stranglehold on 'pop' music and variety entertainment, but the developing discussion has now reached that point where...

*Johnnydee has now left the thread*
 
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