Ruling – whose responsibility?

balaclava

balaclava

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You are out on the course, playing in a competition and your tee shot lies plugged on the right hand side of a fairway where there is no clear distinction between the fairway and the rough. The local rule for plugged balls is different for the fairway and the rough and you want to know whether your ball is either on the fairway or the rough so that you might properly proceed. I presume your marker is empowered to make the decision? What if the marker is unsure? Can you suggest that he/she is obliged to make a decision one way or the other?
 
We've had this situation many times at our place this winter and no-one seems sure of the official rule :D!

My advice is, if there's any uncertainty, play the ball as it lies. That way there's no risk of DQ.

You can also play two balls - one from the plugged lie and then one with a 'drop'. Record both scores and seek counsel back in the clubhouse.
 
My advice is, if there's any uncertainty, play the ball as it lies. That way there's no risk of DQ.
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I should add that in accordance with rule 25-2 and the suggested local rule, my club allows lifting and cleaning of embedded balls in both fairway and rough, the only difference is that is must be dropped in the rough and placed on the fairway. If the ball is embedded and unplayable, are you suggesting taking a penalty drop because the marker can't be sure if it's fairway or rough?
 

I should add that in accordance with rule 25-2 and the suggested local rule, my club allows lifting and cleaning of embedded balls in both fairway and rough, the only difference is that is must be dropped in the rough and placed on the fairway. If the ball is embedded and unplayable, are you suggesting taking a penalty drop because the marker can't be sure if it's fairway or rough?
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Surely, if the local rule is there and it's known then you can drop in the rough with no penalty.

My comment was aimed at situations where it's not known whether a local rule is in place.

If the ball is plugged and unplayable in the rough and there's uncertainty over the ruling I'd suggest that ball A is dropped in the rough with no penalty and played and then ball B is dropped in the rough and played, this time with a penalty.

Complete the hole with both balls, note down both scores and then check in the clubhouse after completion of the round.
 
You are out on the course, playing in a competition and your tee shot lies plugged on the right hand side of a fairway where there is no clear distinction between the fairway and the rough. The local rule for plugged balls is different for the fairway and the rough and you want to know whether your ball is either on the fairway or the rough so that you might properly proceed. I presume your marker is empowered to make the decision? What if the marker is unsure? Can you suggest that he/she is obliged to make a decision one way or the other?
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Do you really mean should I prefer my lie on the fairway or drop from an embedded in the rough.....?
 
There are several questions that arise from this real situation i.e. this is not a hypothetical question.

The first question is, when out on the course and a ruling is required (is my ball on the fairway or in the rough) who makes that ruling? I believe (but correct me if I am wrong) that the ruling is made by the marker. If this a rule of golf (that out on the course the marker has the final say on a ruling) I’d appreciate knowing if it is stated somewhere.

The next question is (on the presumption that the above is correct) if the marker is not sure of the answer, is the marker obliged to make a decision right or wrong. And if after making the decision, if that decision later turns out to be the wrong decision, does the decision stand?

Finally, if some third party on an adjacent fairway witnesses the incident and forms the view that the marker has made the wrong decision does that third party have any standing?
 
There are several questions that arise from this real situation i.e. this is not a hypothetical question.

The first question is, when out on the course and a ruling is required (is my ball on the fairway or in the rough) who makes that ruling? I believe (but correct me if I am wrong) that the ruling is made by the marker. If this a rule of golf (that out on the course the marker has the final say on a ruling) I’d appreciate knowing if it is stated somewhere.

The next question is (on the presumption that the above is correct) if the marker is not sure of the answer, is the marker obliged to make a decision right or wrong. And if after making the decision, if that decision later turns out to be the wrong decision, does the decision stand?

Finally, if some third party on an adjacent fairway witnesses the incident and forms the view that the marker has made the wrong decision does that third party have any standing?
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Strictly speaking......
Question 1. The marker has no authority to make any decision in the case where a ruling is required. As mentioned above, the correct action is to play two balls as covered in the rules and ask the committee to rule if necessary.
Questions 2 and 3 are therefore irrelevant.

In practice though it would normally be agreed between the group before proceeding. If there is any doubt then invoke the two ball rule, if not then there won't be an issue as the only people in a position to judge were all in agreement.
 
I thought the question was "what do you do if you cant decide if the ball is on the fairway or rough, who decides? :D
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It was but in his situation it has no bearing - as under their local rules (if applied correctly) then he would get relief wherever it lay (fairway or rough).....
 
I may be wrong but I believe that there is only one set of rules i.e. there are not two sets, one for professionals and one for amateurs. I’ve never seen a pro being asked to play two balls whilst a decision is being made! What I do see is rule 34-2 - Referee’s Decision - If a referee has been appointed by the Committee, his decision is final. Of course in a professional competition there would be a ‘referee’ and I would argue that in amateur golf, the marker is the referee. Either way I’d appreciate anyone pointing towards a rule of web page that states one way or the other. (I also note that only the club secretary can ask the R&A for a ruling!
 
I may be wrong but I believe that there is only one set of rules i.e. there are not two sets, one for professionals and one for amateurs. I’ve never seen a pro being asked to play two balls whilst a decision is being made! What I do see is rule 34-2 - Referee’s Decision - If a referee has been appointed by the Committee, his decision is final. Of course in a professional competition there would be a ‘referee’ and I would argue that in amateur golf, the marker is the referee. Either way I’d appreciate anyone pointing towards a rule of web page that states one way or the other. (I also note that only the club secretary can ask the R&A for a ruling!
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That'll be because John Paramor and his chums are there every week too alleoviate the need to hit 2 balls!!

You should look at the defition of 'marker' and 'referee'....34-2 can only kick in if you actually have a referee present....
 
3.3. In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.

OK I have read rule 3.3 but. . . . . how many times during a game of golf do you ask your marker if for a decision on a multitude of things. For example if I am stood in water I don’t simply pick up and drop my ball I ask the marker to agree that I am stood in water and consequently eligible for a free drop. It could be said that by asking the question you are doubtful and so should play two balls etc. If I believe I am on the fairway or rough and I ask my marker if he agrees with me then we are not doubtful so there is no requirement to play two balls. Do we agree with that statement?

What then if a third party witness suggests that the wrong decision was made and so that after legal lifting and cleaning the ball was placed when it should have been dropped?
 
I don't see that in the question of fairway or rough you can play 2 balls, unless you're going to mark the position, hope no-one picks the marker up after you then drag a committee member out after your round to decide.

We generally agree between us, and if we don't agree I'll take the worse outcome and carry on.
Some people will argue and try to coerce the others into agreeing with him but it's only a game and not worth the hassle imo.
 
Definition of marker - A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

The problem with idea that the marker (or player and marker together) has/have no authority to adjudicate on a decision during play would mean that every time a question arose (e.g. do I drop or do I place) would mean playing two balls, that would wreak havoc not just to the individual’s game but would bring the whole field to a grinding halt.
 
Definition of marker - A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

The problem with idea that the marker (or player and marker together) has/have no authority to adjudicate on a decision during play would mean that every time a question arose (e.g. do I drop or do I place) would mean playing two balls, that would wreak havoc not just to the individual’s game but would bring the whole field to a grinding halt.
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Most things are covered in the rule book - maybe you should carry one?!

The problem with you situation, I think, is that your local rule (or at least the interpretion) is probably wrong...if the local rule for plugged ball in fairway and rough is in place then it doesn't matter where the ball as you are entitled to a drop whatever...so you and/or the marker don't need to decide....
 
Here is the 'local rule' - verbatim:

A ball lying on a closely mown area, through the green, may be marked, lifted cleaned and placed within 6 inches, not nearer the hole
A ball embedded in it’s own pitch-mark, through the green, may be lifted, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole.

As I read it, embedded on the fairway, must be placed; embedded in the rough, must be dropped.
 
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